How are Damage Types Used

[Hemperor]

What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

No need to be rude Matron, you only further embarass yourself. My quotes directly state "katana is faster than kryss" while yours state "yay fencing is fun".

So do you mean to tell me that real players in era had no idea what they were talking about (the vast majority around the time period of our weapon tables agree that katana is faster), but you, a no name douche thief 10 years later has a valid opinion to be considered?

Please, spare me

No I'm telling you that the one (or two) people you quoted were not OSI staff and had just as much average knowledge as we can assume anyone else had. Almost all of the posters felt that fencing was faster.

Your quote can directly state "katana is faster than kryss" all day long, but it's meaningless until it's quoted from a remotely-reliable source.

Each quote was actually a different person.

I was actually doing this to show that youre whole "well we remember kryss being faster" is no more valid than those quotes. You can notice this by my original line:

You could say these are only statements from players during the era, but then again, you guys are only making statements 10 years after :

In fact, if anything, they would be more valid because they are 10 years older.

Weapons table changed, as one of them described it:

OSI (sarcasm):"Let's see, all the folks who want the fastest weapon, regardless of damage,
are using fencing... all the people who want to do more damage, and are
willing to sacrifice some speed.. are taking swordsmanship.. bah, we like
swords better, screw those fencing guys... swords will now have the fastest
AND the biggest weapons.."

So everyone is right in a sense, the weapons table here is accurate to a date... What date is that, is all I want to know.

[Kraarug]

What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

No need to be rude Matron, you only further embarass yourself. My quotes directly state "katana is faster than kryss" while yours state "yay fencing is fun".

So do you mean to tell me that real players in era had no idea what they were talking about (the vast majority around the time period of our weapon tables agree that katana is faster), but you, a no name douche thief 10 years later has a valid opinion to be considered?

Please, spare me

They could have been citing the same flawed webpage. How else would he get a "8% faster" number from?

[Hemperor]

What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

No need to be rude Matron, you only further embarass yourself. My quotes directly state "katana is faster than kryss" while yours state "yay fencing is fun".

So do you mean to tell me that real players in era had no idea what they were talking about (the vast majority around the time period of our weapon tables agree that katana is faster), but you, a no name douche thief 10 years later has a valid opinion to be considered?

Please, spare me

They could have been citing the same flawed webpage. How else would he get a "8% faster" number from?

These are the same people playing the game during the era and then come to post on those boards. I'm sure they would have noticed, it seems to be the general consensus (at least around that date) that the katana was faster.

Another player acknowledges that OSI had made a change to the weapon tables making katanas faster. I've layed this out as simple as can be for you guys:

1. You all say kryss is supposed to be faster.
2. I find plentiful posts from a certain target date on this group regarding that the katana is specifically faster than the kryss, because there was a change made to the weapon tables.
3. This change is the current weapon table we use.

At some point during era, kryss was faster, another point; katana was faster.

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

Just to state my two cents.

I always remembered the weapons being speed: Fastest to Slowest..

Dagger - (Actually fought a guy in Bux Den on Atlantic who had a Vanq Dagger.... It was stupidly insane lol) p.s. he won...

Kyrss -

Katana -

Shortspear/broadsword - I remember them as being about the same. SS seemed a tad faster though.

I remember a lot of times on my fencer fighting mages with a short spear because it was fast enough to disrupt just about every spell, and had way better damage than a kyrss. Only reason for a kyrss was quick pots which only mattered when I was fighting mages and I was outnumbered.

[Mephistopheles]

Unfortunately, this kind of debate requires a control setting which is, unless you have a time machine and are willing to possibly destroy the fabric of space and time to find out, impossible.

I went onto Test and did a little bit of guess what.

- Each Character had 100 HP
- The two fighters had 120 Dex and GMed Anatomy, Swords/Fencing and Tactics
- The two fighters were carrying nothing on them and were naked just in case weight had any bearing on speed
- The victim was wearing no armor
- The combatants had brand new Exceptional weapons.

Using a stop watch:
- Kryss: 8-8.16 seconds.
- Katana:6-6.98 seconds.

Probably doesn't help much but I thought I'd post this anyways.

Bear in mind that all combat is based on dice rolls so, while on average a Katana might have more DPS, it's often so close a call that the weapons eventually even out over enough time.

[Kraarug]

You could say these are only statements from players during the era, but then again, you guys are only making statements 10 years after :

Katana, a POS, all there is to it, hits less hard then a kryss against low
armor, and is TINY bit faster, however it does enough less damage then a kryss
ot make it suck.

You know, that a katana is a bit faster than a kryss? And you could also
apply deadly poison on it.

Using kryss you are playing entirely for disruption and
poisoning. Katana is now faster than kryss.

Katana IS slightly faster than the kryss now, (about 8% faster, I believe)
but kryss does more damage (like 10-15% more base, not even accounting for
the fact that the difference is greater because of armor).

OSI (sarcasm):"Let's see, all the folks who want the fastest weapon, regardless of damage,
are using fencing... all the people who want to do more damage, and are
willing to sacrifice some speed.. are taking swordsmanship.. bah, we like
swords better, screw those fencing guys... swords will now have the fastest
AND the biggest weapons.."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 30fb75d32e

Factor in speed, and a katana is
arguably the best weapon in the game.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.game ... 6992d539ab

Only a fraction of the memories I could pull from the sight... just to balance thet playing fields here. What it seems to me is that at one point kryss was faster and then the weapon tables were changed. What date is ours from?

Please read your source. This is a quote from one of your pages with an actual PLAYER test. The result? The Kryss ruled the Katana.

Also, please note that one of the players you quoted was obviously wrong about fencing weapons stating that only the kryss is poisonable.

Newsgroups: alt.games.ultima-online, rec.games.computer.ultima.online
From: "Karnage" <karn...@trans-it.de>
Date: 1999/08/30
Subject: Re: Question...advice please.
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
Well thats totally misinforming him. Take it from a master
poisoner/fencer/alchemist....You can poison all weapons that
puncture(fencing) or cut (swordsmanship).
Further to this I am very doubtfull as to whether a katana is faster heres
what I tried out.
ME 91 tactics 90 Fencing 65 Str 100 Dex (I know I know)
HER (my girlfriend) 92 tactics 90 Swordmanship Str 91 Dex 70
Myself Armed with a GM kryss her with a GM katana.
First Spar she takes 5 points of me I reduce her to 10 remaining
she heals
Second spar she takes 15 points of me I reduce her to 5 remaining points.
Third Spar.........I Reduce her to tears =) .....she wants a fencer now.
Quaestor <RangerH...@Skara.Brae> wrote in message

It's rather clear that those saying that the katana was faster were only making the same mistake that we are trying to correct by citing that mistaken stratics page.

[Kraarug]

Only a fraction of the memories I could pull.....

VERY NICE HEMP! Almost your whole post in it's entirety came from one mans post, but I love how you seperated it into different sections to give it that nice look.

Here are the fencing quotes from the same link you posted, each "quote" posted below is a different post. Let's give that a try for a change.

then I would go
fencing, the kryss/good magic daggers own mages if well used

I get the
impression that the fencing weapons are fast enough to do it, like the magic
dagger or kryss.

Fencing. Speed is everything in close combat, and you can put some
deadly poison on that blade too.

Magery then, but fencers are the only ones that can disrupt
often enough to keep a mage in place so that's still a great choice.

I was at 96 swords before I switched to maces on my tank mage. I hate
maces. They are slow and clumsy and don't do much damage. If you want
slow and clumsy big swords will do the most damage (a large two-handed
axe or a halberd can easily kill in 3 blows). Speed is really important
though so I'd still recommend fencing.

You can poison all fencing weapons. A dp spear is naasssty against a
warrior. And a dp dagger can seriously mess up a mage because of the speed.

ME 91 tactics 90 Fencing 65 Str 100 Dex (I know I know)
HER (my girlfriend) 92 tactics 90 Swordmanship Str 91 Dex 70
Myself Armed with a GM kryss her with a GM katana.
First Spar she takes 5 points of me I reduce her to 10 remaining
she heals
Second spar she takes 15 points of me I reduce her to 5 remaining points.
Third Spar.........I Reduce her to tears =) .....she wants a fencer now.

It's clear to me, reading through that chatlog, that virtually nobody had any idea what they were talking about, but still fencing is mentioned as the fastest weapons SEVERAL times more than swords.

On a side note, the same guy who hemperor quoted had very little knowledge on fencing (or poisoning for that matter). Here is the hemperor-posted quote with the ignorant part intact, I have no idea why hemperor would remove it...

Of all the fencing weapons, you can only poison the kryss, which does little
against armor. Using kryss you are playing entirely for disruption and
poisoning. Katana is now faster than kryss.

I'm sorry Matron, I see you have pointed out the same as my previous post.

[Ronk]

I did a little research and figured id post some findings...

First, I went to uo.com and did a search for 'Publish' and then went through all publishes looking for anything talking about weapon speeds and such. This covered publishes from 1999 to modern day. I focused mainly on 2006 and previously because when I found the oldest 'new' stratics site (which lists katana as slower) and that was 2006. Meaning from 2006 on, stratics did not update the weapon speeds.

So, from there I found these patches:
Publish 40: http://update.uo.com/design_524.html
It notes "Balanced weapon speeds. Weapon speed is now displayed in seconds." Of course, what this means? I dunno. But this patch was May 5 (my birthday, yay) of 2006 and likely the patch that caused stratics to do an update. This gives us a nice reference in time regardless.

A year prior on May 17, 2005, there was Publish 32.1 http://update.uo.com/design_514.html which stated that all weapon speeds were decreased (made faster) by .5 seconds. This would have effected katana and kryss equally but it was a speed change so I noted it.

Prior to that I found no other weapon speed change notes. The next major combat update that could have affected speeds (though the notes don't say so) was the renaissance publish (april 28, 2000) http://update.uo.com/design_196.html. This publish added the two handed special moves, lumberjack damage, etc.

So the question this leaves me is this. Did the birthday patch (pub 40) decrease the speed of the katana and make the kryss faster, or was the kryss always faster?

Sadly, the wayback machine is missing many of the stratics pages but these are the ones I can piece together:

Before 2-12-98:
http://web.archive.org/web/199905082158 ... rms212.htm
Dagger: 3-12 damage: Speed 70
Kryss: 6-18 damage: Speed 50
Katana: 4-20 damage: Speed 40

After 2-12-98:
http://web.archive.org/web/199905022020 ... m/arms.htm
Dagger: 3-9 damage: Speed 50
Kryss: 5-11 damage: Speed 65
Katana: 1-16 damage: Speed 58

After 5-27-99:
http://web.archive.org/web/199910130704 ... m/arms.htm
Dagger: 3-15 damage: Speed 55
Kryss: 3-28 damage: Speed 53
Katana: 5-26 damage: Speed 58

Modern Day Stratics:
http://uo.stratics.com/database/view.ph ... elcome=yes
Dagger: 10-11 damage: Speed 56
Kryss: 10-12 damage: Speed 53
Katana: 11-13 damage: Speed 46

Also note: Someone suggested that perhaps the katana was a speed typo and should be 48 instead of 58. Another suggested "no way, quarter staff was not as fast as a katana". The current stratics speed of a quarter staff is 48.

Further, to do some comparing of the current weapon speeds vs the ones in our 'potentially flawed' stratics page...

Weapon [Old Stratics] (Modern Stratics)
Battle Axe [30] (31) (Modern is faster)
Hatchet [40] (41) (Modern is faster)
Bow [20] (25) (Modern is faster)
Heavy Xbow [10] (21) (Modern is much faster)
Skinning Knife [40] (49) (Modern is faster)
Warhammer [31] (28) (Modern is slower)
Warmace [32] (26) (Modern is slower)
Hally [25] (25)
Short Spear [50] (55) (Modern is faster)
Spear [46] (42) (Modern is slower)
Warfork [45] (43) (Modern is slower)
Black Staff [35] (39) (Modern is faster)
Broad Sword [45] (33) (Modern is slower)
Longsword [35] (30) (Modern is slower)
Viking Sword [30] (28) (Modern is slower)

Someone else can lookup the weapon damages to compare, if they wish. I dunno if this tells us anything but its info.

[Derrick]

Thanks much Ronk for compiling this. I really am becoming a believer that the Kat Speed from mid-99 on stratics was an error. Katana faster than a dagger just doesn't sit well with me.

The problem remains that we're grasping at straws if we start reassigning speeds without something concrete to go by though, Reversal of the katana and kryss speeds seem to me to be the most plausible explanation, second only to the kat being off by 10 (for 48), which would restore the dagger as the fastest weapon, which was my understanding in era.

[Ronk]

Thanks much Ronk for compiling this. I really am becoming a believer that the Kat Speed from mid-99 on stratics was an error. Katana faster than a dagger just doesn't sit well with me.

The problem remains that we're grasping at straws if we start reassigning speeds without something concrete to go by though, Reversal of the katana and kryss speeds seem to me to be the most plausible explanation, second only to the kat being off by 10 (for 48), which would restore the dagger as the fastest weapon, which was my understanding in era.

Yeah, I understand its kind of a sticky situation because any change would be going under the big assumption that there was an error. I am going to keep digging, I figure the more info found and thrown out the better people can discuss/interpret it all.

Edit:
FYI, I managed to find another piece of the stratics 'puzzle'.
This is Feb 27, 2003 according to the wayback machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/200302270954 ... r/arms.php

Dagger: 10-11 damage, Speed 49
Kryss: 10-12 damage, Speed 53
Katana: 11-13 damage, Speed: 46

I doubt anything will come of it, but I also emailed stratics to ask for some clarification/info.

Edit 2:
Just found another patch note:
Miscellaneous AoS Changes: Feb 10 2003
http://update.uo.com/design_433.html
"Virtually all weapon & armor stats have changed. This includes their strength requirements (which have increased), damage values, and swing speeds."

This seems to correspond with the stratics page date I posted just above in this same post.

Edit 3:
I also found the email of one of the programmers that worked on UO during T2A but given that he is back in the employ of UO and EA I figured it would be best not to message him. I would hate to draw EA's attention to the shard, not that I figure they could do much anyway.

[Hiram]

Some anecdotal evidence from the usenet link hemperor posted earlier, a conversation where someone claims a kyrss at 93dex hits faster than a katana at 100 dex?

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 5c698c5d97

Still poking around for someone who actually tested this

[Faust]

A kryss swings at the same exact rate here as a katana with 100 stamina.

Also, take special note that the weapon delay formula changed in modern Ultima Online compared to the one previously used in both the t2a and uor eras Ronk. The formula was different during the pre-t2a era too. This would vastly change the speed outcomes for each delay obviously requiring some tweaks and balances here and there too. These formulas are very critical when compiling data like that and definitely should not be left out. The weapon speeds means absolutely nothing without the formula that uses it.

Pre T2A
10000 / (( Dex + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

T2A - UOR
15000 / (( Stam + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

Modern UO
Final Weapon Speed = Weapon Speed * Swing Speed Increase % item bonus

Swing Delay = (Floor ( 80000 / ( [Stamina + 100] * Final WeaponSpeed) ) / 4) - 0.5

[Hiram]

A kryss swings at the same exact rate here as a katana with 100 stamina.

Also, take special note that the weapon delay formula changed in modern Ultima Online compared to the one previously used in both the t2a and uor eras Ronk. The formula was different during the pre-t2a era too. This would vastly change the speed outcomes for each delay obviously requiring some tweaks and balances here and there too. These formulas are very critical when compiling data like that and definitely should not be left out. The weapon speeds means absolutely nothing without the formula that uses it.

Pre T2A
10000 / (( Dex + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

T2A - UOR
15000 / (( Stam + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

Modern UO
Final Weapon Speed = Weapon Speed * Swing Speed Increase % item bonus

Swing Delay = (Floor ( 80000 / ( [Stamina + 100] * Final WeaponSpeed) ) / 4) - 0.5

Is there a cap for how low a swing delay is, or how it is counted off, because there is a small difference between the katana and kryss based on the formula, how do they end up being the same speed?

[Ronk]

A kryss swings at the same exact rate here as a katana with 100 stamina.

Also, take special note that the weapon delay formula changed in modern Ultima Online compared to the one previously used in both the t2a and uor eras Ronk. The formula was different during the pre-t2a era too. This would vastly change the speed outcomes for each delay obviously requiring some tweaks and balances here and there too. These formulas are very critical when compiling data like that and definitely should not be left out. The weapon speeds means absolutely nothing without the formula that uses it.

Pre T2A
10000 / (( Dex + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

T2A - UOR
15000 / (( Stam + 100 ) * Weapon Speed ) = Swing Delay

Modern UO
Final Weapon Speed = Weapon Speed * Swing Speed Increase % item bonus

Swing Delay = (Floor ( 80000 / ( [Stamina + 100] * Final WeaponSpeed) ) / 4) - 0.5

Well, two points. First, my main goal was more or less to track weapon speed changes backwards. I.E. discover how it got from T2A to modern.

In addition, unless im suffering a brain lapse from lack of food (its dinner time) the formula's you posted are effectively the same as the weapon speed. Dex and stamina can be assumed to be equal and you have some static values. For modern, assume equal speed increase item bonus....in the end you can factor out all parts of the formula but speed.

Also, I assume another lesser goal was to try and find somewhere, other than our one T2A chart, where the katana was faster than the kryss. Everywhere (old and modern) that ive found states the kryss is faster. While its def not proof, I find it highly suspicious that the katana would have been slower pre-t2a, faster during t2a, and then slower again for the remainder of UO's life.

[Faust]

Is there a cap for how low a swing delay is, or how it is counted off, because there is a small difference between the katana and kryss based on the formula, how do they end up being the same speed?

Delays are counted in ticks aka increments of 0.25 seconds.

Katana - 15000 / ((100 + 100) * 58 = 1.29s rounded down to 1.25s
Kryss - 15000 / ((100 + 100) * 53 = 1.41s rounded down to 1.25s

However, this obviously varies based on specific stamina levels. A kryss can be slower but in a lot of cases relatively the same at higher stamina values.