A forum for discussion of Second Age UO Shard
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What is there that hasn't already been discussed in numerous other threads?Faust wrote:You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.
Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally
Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second
Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.
By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.
This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature... Wrestling simply does not re-create this feature and it's quite obvious when you actually get down to experiencing it. Also, the inconsistancies with the "feel" or "experience" isn't even including the inconsistancies with changing the wrestling timer that is completely inaccurate to the era in itself...
I just don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to understand it...
I know how it works very well... I have already developed scripts that utilized this same function... Again, this was LIVE on UOSA before the disarm delay was implemented to re-create the actual mechanic.Kraarug wrote:I've got to look at what you are saying but keep in mind, When you Unequip a weapon you Equip wresteling and thus the previous timer is canceled and the wrestling timer begins.
If you equip before that timer is done... then the timer is canceled and you restart with the new weapon.
I've got to prepare something for transplant, i'll be back to think about your scenario.
Kraarug wrote:I've got to look at what you are saying but keep in mind, When you Unequip a weapon you Equip wresteling and thus the previous timer is canceled and the wrestling timer begins.Faust wrote:You are still missing the simple fact that it COULD not be based off of wrestling... You had to cycle a weapon to start the process. When someone RUNS up to you and makes you wrestle your timer begins immediately... This means that you can sit there and wait that small wrestling timer out and swing again. This was not the way it worked during the era.
Wrestling Basis: 2.5 Timer
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2.5 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle 2.5 seconds
wait 2.5 seconds, equip hally
Non-Wrestling Basis: 2s Disarm Delay
hally swing - 5 seconds
unequip - 2 seconds
cast ebolt - 1.75 seconds
wrestle - 3.5 seconds
wait - 3.5 seconds, equip hally <-- Difference ONE second
Do you not understand the difference? You CLEARLY get a one second head start when someone makes you wrestle compared to the way it actually worked... The point in making someone wrestle was to waste their cycle... and get a jump start on your own. However, if you RUN up and WASTE your opponents weapon cycle their cycle starts IMMEDIATELY being based on wrestling... This means that you have to get away from your opponent slowing your cycle down greatly and by the time you're about to finish your cycle your opponents is ready and he's already on top of you... Again, the point was to WASTE their cycle and get a JUMP on your own. This makes the counter tactic making your opponent wrestle utterly USELESS as previously stated.
By using the correct system you would have to wait an extra 1 second "or" recycle your weapon, but by the time either of those two scenarios elapsed your cycle will be well on its way to being finished. Removing the only counter tactic for a hally that can be cycled so quickly hurts PVP horribly... The pvp comes down to redundant hits on WHO can dish out the highest hally hit, not who can control the situation the best between using both functions. What else do you expect to happen when the counter tactic is no longer a viable option... It comes down to who can cycle their weapons the best and who dishes out the most damage. In other words the PVP is simply ruined and completely luck based.
This is WHY wrestling was not the cause for this feature...
I don't know why it's so hard for anyone to understand this.
If you equip before that timer is done... then the timer is canceled and you restart with the new weapon.
I've got to prepare something for transplant, i'll be back to think about your scenario.
fixed wrote:Wrestling Basis: 25 Stamina, 50 Speed = 2.5 Timer
hally swing - start 5 second hally timer (25 Stamina, 25 Speed)
unequip - STOP 5 second hally timer, start 2.5 second wrestling timer.
...
Wouldn't your oppent only be able make you punch IF his timer is ready? And that's a .5 second window of opportunity.Faust wrote:Kraarug wrote:
Wresting Basis : 2.5 Timer
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents weapon cycle begins immediately since it's based on wrestling...
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
Your opponets already had a head start cycling his weapon and he is on top of you wasting your cycle hitting you with a hally...
Disarm Delay Basis: 2s Delay
Opponent begins casting ebolt
You run up and make him wrestle resetting his swing
Opponents wrestling delay is 3.5s being 1.5s longer than a weapon cycle.
Opponent can either wait that delay or spend time resetting the cycle by arming/disarming again.
You run back a couple steps, unequip weapon for cycle(remember running also pauses your weapon delay)
You will have the head start on your opponet in either situation with this system since his cycle doesn't start immediately when making him wrestle...
Faust wrote: PS
Apok, yes you can still waste your opponents swing by making them wrestle at the moment. However, if insta hit refreshes, weapon cycles, or fast swing(whatever you want to call it) is changed to wrestling it will be utterly useless to make someone wrestle if they're smart. So hope that this doesn't change... or the system will be completely out of whack and ruined.
What exactly do you mean by that?Kraarug wrote:Wouldn't your oppent only be able make you punch IF his timer is ready? And that's a .5 second window of opportunity.
That's hardly and issue considering you get a spell IN PLUS advanced the biggest weapon by over 2 seconds.
The demo uses the old equation that was based off of dexterity. The Prima guide records that formula as:Faust wrote:Kaivan,
I don't see how wrestling could have a base speed of 25... That is the same speed that a hally uses.
Weapon Speed : 25
100 Dex: 15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 25 = 3.0 Delay
25 Dex: 15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 25 = 4.8 Delay
I lost some of my testing data when my machine crashed that had the demo and data from testing results. This resulted in the loss of my video with wrestling test using a base of low 20ish dex. The 100 dex video luckily is on my main PC from sending it to Derrick... I will post screenshots of the video that shows you the frame process from the delay.
The result of the 100 dex video resulted in a delay roughly on average resulted in between a "2.0 - 2.5" delay... That is almost a full second longer than a base speed of 25 for wrestling.
If you take the RunUO default base speed it produces these results...
Weapon Speed : 35
15000 / ( 100 + 100 ) * 35 = 2.1
15000 / ( 25 + 100 ) * 35 = 3.4
If you applied these results to a timer based around ticks it would be 2.25s and 3.5s for the end result of the timer... The results produced using the RunUO default speed of 35 for wrestling gets pretty much precise results that the demo dishes out...
PS
Apok, yes you can still waste your opponents swing by making them wrestle at the moment. However, if insta hit refreshes, weapon cycles, or fast swing(whatever you want to call it) is changed to wrestling it will be utterly useless to make someone wrestle if they're smart. So hope that this doesn't change... or the system will be completely out of whack and ruined.
Does anything else really need be said revolving the theory around wrestling after Kaivan's input?Kaivan wrote:P.S. On looking at the speeds that existed during the dexterity time period and the speeds that existed during the stamina time period, the resulting weapon speeds themselves were all markedly slower under the stamina system than they were during the dexterity period. Given that pattern, it stands to reason that the wrestling delay remained at or near the weapon speed it had on the demo and was not increased to 35 as is reflected in the RunUO default values.