Patch 99 - April 23, 2009 - Last double digit patch.

[Faust]

The disarm delay has been changed somewhat... You have to wait about an extra delay on the current test center. This change is entirely wrong and the point of the change is to modify the delay to work the way it was, but remove the exploit that Razor and the client can perform being able to manipulate the timer. In other words the macro/exploit that I created that is completely legal but inaccurate will hopefully be fixed.. Derrick and I have been trying to develop a way to remove it entirely. However, the timer right now is way too long that was implemented... I developed a much better counter measure and submitted it to Derrick last night. Hopefully it goes into the test center real soon.

The point of the auto defend throttle isn't to remove the capacity to make someone auto defend but instead remove the ability to spam it. The tab throttle works by catching the event action and if so many are called in a specific period of time it times out for 2 seconds. If you apply this to auto defend now it would help tremendously. Timing out auto defend even for a moment is better than never... The variables for the amount of the events called and the timeout can be whatever deemed necessary.

Also, the swing speed formula is "15000 / ( stam + 100 ) * weapon speed" for combat. A hally has a speed of 25 in the table. Hallys can swing every 4.8 seconds(5 if based on ticks when fixed) at 25 stamina. This will shift slightly for obvious reasons when you begin to lose stamina. The slowest possible speed a hally can swing is every 6 seconds.

[Finesse]

i will have to test this now but i seriously beleive making the insta hit longer is a wrong move surely the challenge is useing your insta hit is the challenge of using it every two seconds b4 someone comes in with the auto deffend. i just see having to stand still for 4.5 seconds while someone is hitting attack last kinda rediculas and imo removes the insta hit feature.

but like i said il test it now.

i do however like the fact your putting in a more accurate while armed timer.

[Faust]

The goal in my view is to keep the same 2 second timer with a slight modification to the point of always being able to have a swing ready after casting a sixth circle spell like with the 2 sec disarm delay. I have done some pretty extensive testing with weapon cycles at 0 ping that pretty much allows you to get a swing ready anywhere from 2-2.5 seconds. This time frame is only 1 to 2 ticks in the confines of being able to refresh a hally after casting an ebolt due to lag, delays, etc... However, the change in test center right now is way off... It gives around a 2.5-3.0 second delay, which does not allow a swing to be ready after a sixth circle spell.

The change/proposal that I have sent to Derrick takes into consideration of your stamina inside of those confines that allows you to get a swing always after a sixth circle spell. What this essentially means is that you can still get a swing after casting an ebolt, but with the fluctuating stamina during combat it will be impossible to set a perfect delay using Razor or the client to exploit the disarm delay using one of those macros that I evented that people thinks are so gimp.

I hope he really considers my proposal instead of what is in tc right now... I agree completely that making the disarm delay longer is a very bad move...

[Orsi]

What is the point of even having a swing timer above 2 seconds when you implement this refresh insta hit thing? You've just effectively made every weapon have a cap of a 2-sec swing timer, there is no cast a 6th circle and get a halberd swing bug.

[Choppa X]

Good job Faust, I'll test the changes when test is updated. Sounds like the pvp will be really fun and enjoyable again.

[Kaivan]

Try to keep this civil and on topic. If you want to have these kind of discussions, they need to be conducted through PMs, not as part of a patch note thread.

[Kraarug]

self deleted... duplicate post.

[Kraarug]

This is how your proposed scenario would actually work:

Halberd HITS - ding ding ding, start timer ----> 0
Disarm/Tab-Out ---------------------------> 0

<DISARM RESETS SWING TIMER TO 0>

Casting E-bolt -----------------------------> 1.75

<EBOLT HAS A 1.75s CAST TIME>

Wait for Cursor/Target E-bolt ---------------> 2.00

<YOU ARE NOW ELIGIBLE FOR A SWING>

<THIS WOULD RESET THE SWING TIMER TO 0>

Equip Halberd/Attack Last -------------------> 0

<RUNNING WOULD NOT ADVANCE THE TIMER>

Run at Target/Halberd HITS - ding ding ding---> 0

<NO SWING>

Actually, if your swing was ready, arming would not reset it to 0. Arming only resets IF the swing isn't ready.

This would be more accurate and how I think it should be. ..if a fast hally wack is to stay in the system.

Halberd HITS - ding ding ding, start timer ----> Start Hally Timer (4.8 seconds) Assuming 25 stam

Disarm/Tab-Out ---------------------------> Start WRESTLING Timer (2.4 seconds) Assuming 25 stam and a speed of 50.

Casting E-bolt -----------------------------> 1.75

<EBOLT HAS A 1.75s CAST TIME>

Wait for Cursor/Target E-bolt ---------------> 2.00

Wait for .4 seconds...

<YOU ARE NOW ELIGIBLE FOR A SWING>

Now.. run up and land that thing.

Total Cast time to target curser: 2 seconds.
Total Fast Hally Whack: 2.4 seconds.

You have just beat the system by 1/2 the time it would have taken you if you just held on to that Hally AND you got a spell off.

Seriously... what more do you really want?

I'd gladly take a reduction of 1/2 in the Healing Timer.... Hell, I'd take the .4 seconds.

[Faust]

Your opponent runs up and forces you to wrestle resetting your timer back to 3.5(real wrestling timer not the AOS wrestle speed) at 25 stamina. You cycle your weapon again and your opponent does the same thing setting you back 7 seconds now. Again, another attempt and your opponent does the same thing setting you back more than 10 seconds...

Now instead of cycling...

You hold your weapon and hit in 5 seconds.

Does anyone need more of a clarification on the differences?

The system was a risk vs reward style setup rather it was intentional or not. This setup was the sole reason the t2a era actually took skill unlike any of the other eras. You could actually control the situation surrounding your weapon timers AND your opponents. The better of the two utilizing the best between the two typically wins.

PS
Wrestling isn't the culprit behind this mechanic... Using a counter measure by wasting your opponents hit is utterly useless unlike it was during the t2a era. Why? Your opponents cycle already starts soon as he wrestles. He does not have to arm/disarm to restart the process like you HAD to during the t2a era. The point in making your opponent to wrestle was to waste his swing and get a jump start on your own cycle. If you do this with a system based on wrestling you will always be behind in the timer, because your opponents starts immediately when you have to back off and waste your timer from the movement restriction. This was not the way this system worked. You HAD to arm/disarm to cycle not wait out your wrestling timer after wasting it by wrestling.

[Kraarug]

Your opponent runs up and forces you to wrestle resetting your timer back to 3.5(real wrestling timer not the AOS wrestle speed) at 25 stamina. You cycle your weapon again and your opponent does the same thing setting you back 7 seconds now. Again, another attempt and your opponent does the same thing setting you back more than 10 seconds...

Now instead of cycling...

You hold your weapon and hit in 5 seconds.

Does anyone need more of a clarification on the differences?

The system was a risk vs reward style setup rather it was intentional or not. This setup was the sole reason the t2a era actually took skill unlike any of the other eras. You could actually control the situation surrounding your weapon timers AND your opponents. The better of the two utilizing the best between the two typically wins.

That's where a throttle of attack last may come in however, that was the case in Era anyway... according to NightHawk.

I'll edit with the quote...

Here:

rroweatl: the key to the insta-hit hally or whatever was to be out of melee range while casting
rroweatl: so it didn't trigger the punch timer

[Kraarug]

One issue with NightHawks battle is when it actually happened.

We at least know the date of the post... 8.19.99. It may have been much earlier and I have reason to suspect it was.

Attack Last didn't come in until 8.26.99.

So... one of the things to keep in mind? The existance of Attack Last may have, and does, thwart a fast hally whack if it's applied correctly.

What is not correct is the rate of that application and that needs to be addressed with a throttle.

We need to keep that in mind... we can't actually reproduce the mechanics of one sub era function with the existance of another sub era function that may significantly affect the former.

Maybe Attack Last is to the Fast Hally Whack that the Double Eagle Defense in Football was to the Single Wing Offence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wing

[Faust]

That was his theory on the mechanic... Doesn't mean it worked that way... That was the same theory that I had when this feature was released on the live server here. However, it became quite clear how wrong it really was. I started digging for better and more conclusive evidence after realizing how wrong it was.

The wrestling speed was not 50 during t2a... The wrestling timer on the demo sitting at 100 stamina swings roughly around every 2.4 seconds while in the 20's it was 3 point something seconds. The weapons in AOS was radically changed drastically making some faster and slower than previously... The ENTIRE formula was changed to calculate swings too. The speed for wrestling suggested in the modern stratics for wrestling is not right, sorry.

[Kraarug]

That was his theory on the mechanic... Doesn't mean it worked that way... That was the same theory that I had when this feature was released on the live server here. However, it became quite clear how wrong it really was. I started digging for better and more conclusive evidence after realizing how wrong it was.

The wrestling speed was not 50 during t2a... The wrestling timer on the demo sitting at 100 stamina swings roughly around every 2.4 seconds while in the 20's it was 3 point something seconds. The weapons in AOS was radically changed drastically making some faster and slower than previously... The ENTIRE formula was changed to calculate swings too. The speed for wrestling suggested in the modern stratics for wrestling is not right, sorry.

The Weapon Charts don't show the wrestling speed. I think that there was a reason for that ommission. Personally, I think it was on order of 50+.

Can you find an era reference for 35?

[Faust]

When you record a video breaking the speed down to 7/100 of a second you can easily see how long the wrestling speed is. Sure, it's not possible to produce "perfect" results due to the very small time loss but it shows you roughly where the values would be sitting closely at. The values that were produced WAS in the same area as the RunUO default of 35. I would prefer trusting a demo that utilized the same weapon table that we use here compared to a decade later Stratics source that changed combat damage/speeds radically and substantially after the AOS expansion was released... For all we know is that wrestling speed could have been increased to allow those stupid special moves to happen to be on par with the rest of the weapons.

[Kaivan]

Just to add some information, the wrestling speed on the demo was 25.

Beyond that, this thread needs to stay on topic. Any discussion about weapon refreshes needs to be maintained elsewhere.