Haly Cycling with Wrestling timer!

[Faust]

There are essentially different states or periods with your combat timer or weapon swings. The timer isn't just a simple delay applied after swinging your weapon like RunUO used. There is much more to the timer than this when in reality.

[ State 0 ] - [ State 1 ] - [ State 2 ] - [ State 3 ]

These states represent different sections of your combat timer BASED on the CURRENT weapon that is in your hands.

State 0 - Refers to the early stage of the delay and usually is the longest in most cases.
State 1 - Swing preparation --> plant time for ranged weapons
State 2 - Animation state for bows and used to be for melee weapons(this is theorized to be the prep state for melee weapons after insta hit)
State 3 - Damage state and only lasts one tick

The swing counter determines what state you are in every single tick(0.25s) based on the current equipped weapon using the delay based on the weapons speed and your current stamina.

We know that this same timer was being in UOR(despite some of the content being slightly altered) due to various patch notes. For example, the range check in the CombatHeatBeat() was fixed to allow swings to hold and the way swing advancements work for the movement restriction. These are all present in the original timer and we know it was relatively the same even up until 2001 with the archery fix on wasting ammunition based on the way the CombatHeartBeat() functioned for state determination.

The equip/arm delay that resets your SwingCounter to 0 during the lift and equip packets exist on production shards to this very day... Combat timer is still based on a ticks in modern production shards using the SwingCounter approach. Simply take a look at the modern weapon stats on their web site using tick measurements just like it does in the original from the demo.

[Ulfrigg]

Pls stay ontopic and start a new thread about the "prep time" and "insta hit"!

[Faust]

Ill try explain it easy for you then (the numbers arent acc that im using)

I have a Haly swing time 4 sec
I can wrestle swing time 2 sec

I hit my opponent with the haly "bam" timer starts ticking for 4 sec for my next swing, but instead of waiting for that i disarm my haly and then half my swing timer is gone since by using that exploit it switch the timer to the wrestling. Thats how it works here now and thats what that patch fixed.

No it did not.

If this was true than the act of cycling a hally would not be possible and this goes against the various sources that follow this patch.

This leads us back to my initial question.

If you could not cycle a hally... how can you unload an explosion, ebolt, hally combo WHEN your weapon timer resets to 0 during the equip/arm delay?

Please do the math....

Explosion Damage Delay: 3.0 Seconds
Ebolt Cast Delay: 1.75 Seconds
Ebolt Damage Delay: 1.0 Second
Hally Delay: 5.0 Seconds

Again, please explain to me how you can unload this combo when your hally resets to 5 seconds after being dragged AND equipped when the equip/arm delay is triggered if you could not cycle a weapon????

Pls stay ontopic and start a new thread about the "prep time" and "insta hit"!

You clearly have no understanding of this entire scope if you think the combat timer/prep time/insta hit changes has nothing to do with it. If you can't even take the time to educate yourself on the combat timer to understand WHY your explanation is far off into left field, you will never understand why you are clearly wrong in this discussion.

Please educate yourself on these crucial basic game mechanics, because you clearly don't demostrate much understanding with them.

[Ulfrigg]

Were exactly am i saying that the weapon dint cycle when it gets disarmed? Your the one saying if the bug that lets you switch timers dont exist you cant cycle???

It cycled but on the haly timer not on the wrestling timer. Witch makes that combo easy to pull of, i also used that combo back then.

There edited topic so you understand its not weapon cycling, but the Haly vs Wrest timer cycling thats on topic.

[Faust]

Are you understanding the term "Weapon Cycle" here? This definition refers to the ability to swap a hally for your wrestling timer, not cycling the current weapon delay. Clearly obvious that a weapon would cycle it's own delay if held the entire timespan of it.

This is the part you are not understanding.

Timers DO NOT switch based on in game mechanics. There are no multiple timers or even one associated with the mobile(character) itself. There is one timer in Ultima Online and it's the global timer. This is where you need to educate yourself on the mechanics of HOW the combat timer actually functioned along with mechanics that could alter related issues. There is an integer based variable that determines your swing counter.

Switching weapons DO NOT apply timers OR alter a timer.

Your weapon delay is determined EVERY quarter of a second(0.25 seconds) BASED on the currently equipped weapon in your hands(wrestling if none is present). The only time your swing counter is effected outside of finishing your swing is when you lift or equip a weapon. The counter gets reset to 0 and this is due to the equip/arm delay. There is no switching timers between one weapon to the next. Your swing delay is NOT determined in the manner you keep presenting in your responses.

It cycled but on the haly timer not on the wrestling timer. Witch makes that combo easy to pull of, i also used that combo back then.

Due to your assumed misrepresentation of the term "cycle", we can only assume you are referring to waiting the entire swing delay of a hally that is equivalent to 5 seconds long for a standard tank mage...

Please explain how it's "easy" to pull this off when...

Cast explosion - target (3 second damage delay)
Cast energy bolt - (1.75 casting delay) hold target
Equip hally - timer resets to the beginning due to the equip/arm delay waiting out an entirely new 5 second delay

How can you wait out an entire 5 seconds when there is only 1.25s left on the damage delay from your explosion? That leaves us with 3.75s left on your hally timer until you can even attempt to swing. This is even under perfect conditions with 0 ping meaning it would in fact be longer in reality.

Doubt you will follow me once more with this though.... trying to argue a simple concept like this to someone that does not understand basic game mechanics or even attempt to follow is becoming dreadful.

[Ulfrigg]

I must say the same to you, its impossible to argue with you. I fear that this server is being runed by you and not Derrick, so you will probebly get your made up rules how it was in era, even thou people prove you wrong.

Please explain how it's "easy" to pull this off when...

Cast explosion - target (3 second damage delay)
Cast energy bolt - (1.75 casting delay) hold target
Equip hally - timer resets to the beginning due to the equip/arm delay waiting out an entirely new 5 second delay

(Equip hally - timer resets to the beginning due to the equip/arm delay waiting out an entirely new 5 second delay ) Take away that line since thats not how it works here and back then.

Cycle = http://www.businessdictionary.com/defin ... -time.html

[FishinPro]

3/16/99:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... h1W5Sp2a8J

>Well its a matter of prefrance I also have a GM swords man with fairly High
>dex he can jump in and hit your before you even start to swing with the
>Halby.

That hasn't been true since they changed melee weapons to hit at the
beginning of the swing rather than at the end.

*Shakes Dundee's hand* Most people dont realize that this change is in,
thats one reason my brother is so effective against people, they
underestimate the ol' halby.

[Faust]

Wow, you are seriously clueless Ulfrigg... maybe if you would have READ earlier posts you woudl clearly see my mention of the CURRENT combat timer having two bugs associated with it.

1. Swings hold, when they should not.
2. Swings advance during movement, when they should not.

Secondly, the equip delay DOES work here AND it HAS always existed, still til this very day in fact... try it yourself in game. Use up your current weapon swing, and arm/disarm a hally once every second and tell me if you ever swing... The only reason it DOES NOT work here properly is because swings are being held WHEN they should not.

The equip delay is one of the most informed researched mechanics here.

The following actions will trigger the swing counter reset:

1) Packet 0x07: lifting a weapon (lifting includes unequiping)
2) Packet 0x13: succeeding in equiping a weapon
I use the term "succeeding in equiping" because trying to equip a weapon that you cannot wield (MinStrength requirement) will not trigger the reset.

These are the two packet called that alter the SwingCounter to 0, verified by Batlin himself.


Here below is a compiled list of the equip/arm delay since its inception back in 1997 until present day. We know exactly how the mechanic functioned mechanically and have the EXACT code that OSI/EA used. The code is very simplistic and precise by simply calling a "SwingCounter = 0" during the two packets above and this was confirmed by Batlin as you well can see.

- Equip/Lift Delay -

1997, December 16th - Patch
Equipping a weapon in combat will restart your weapon swing.

Reference: http://wiki.uosecondage.com/?title=1997_Patch_Notes

1998, July - UO Demo
Equipping or lifting a weapon adjusts the swing counter to zero.

Reference: Batlin

1999, January 27th - Google Groups
Won't matter for us pure warriors; we still won't have a chance to hit
anything under the sun. Since they're adding an equip delay, it will take
even longer to hit something.

RE:That's just to make the game fair for non-UOA users. So a UOA user
can't disarm and arm with a single keystroke - much quicker than a
non-UOA user.

They are moving the "swing delay" to "after the hit" instead of before
it. That helps warriors that aren't using UOA to disarm, heal, rearm
super-fast.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

1999, February 24th - Google Groups
Is this delay for all weapons, or just ranged weapons? It is very annoying. A
damn ettin walked off the screen while I was waiting to fire.

RE:As far as I can tell, all weapons have a delay before the first swing,
depending on the weapon's swing time.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 29cfbb2369

1999, April 19th - Google Groups
Archers: Another 'cool' char class, though really quite poor. Unless you have 100


dex, supremely acc +23 archery bows and and 100 skill you will hit so infrequently
that anyone can do anything between the shots. Combined with the equip delay it
is too slow. However, a fast moving archer can give an advantage (as everything).
I agree with some other comments; poor to begin with, nerfed to nothing.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

1999, May 13th - Google Groups
Pandemonium mentioned that he would like to make it so that you can drink
potions and cast spells with weapons equiped (but still have the re-equip
delay before you start firing/swinging again). I'm not sure about the
balance issues raised by this, but it seems like it might make two handed
weapons (such as bows more popular with those who do not use UOA.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 8dde8841b8

1999, June 22nd - Google Groups
Ideas I like most so far:


1) Increase the fire rate, decrease the re-arm delay;
2) Increased accuracy to offset the cost of arrows and the fact that
good mages never miss, and meleers hit so fast they hardly notice;
3) Ability to interrupt an archers fire to balance the other changes.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 4e6d4f95d8

1999, August 12th - Google Groups
For instance, my mage is still holding on to his archery and because
of the arm delay cannot effectively use the "combo". Well, plus I'd
died to lag of death twice last night and decided not to even pickup a
bow.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 8e13bc5812

1999, December 16th - UOHOC
Glamdring - *Asparouh-LoD* Archery is the least popular fighting skill now and continues to go down. Are you going to at least fix the extremelly long delay before a bow starts shooting when equipped?Any changes planned to make crossbows and heavy crossbows useful again?My bowyer is starving!
Firedog - Much of our attention is focused at this time on the six-month plan. Making adjustments to specific skills will most probably
Firedog - not take place until after we implement that plan.
Firedog - After this happens, there will certainly be more time to look at individual skills, and archery is certainly one
Firedog - that I would like to take a look at.

Reference: http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/1999-12-16-pub.shtml

2000, January 15th - Google Groups
Not true on either account as far as I know. The nerf on archery
included removing the ability to drink potions with a bow equipped and
then adding a horendously long equip delay for all types of bows.

RE:The equip delay is a real killer though, especially
since there doesn't seem to be one for the other weapons.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

2000, January 16th - Google Groups
weapon delay. Why does archery have such a huge
delay, but a halberd doesn't? The equip delay
for archery needs to be shortened, and lengthened
for some other weapons. I'd make the delay weapon
based and not "skill class" based.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 48463443bb

2000, February 3rd - UOHOC
Glamdring - *Exe_* "BTW, great changes lately, the game seems livelier than ever. Archery Question: Is there a reason you decided to increase the firing rate as opposed to decreasing the equip delay? IMO it's the equip delay which makes the bow practically useless in pvp and the reason most people choose not to use it."
Sage - Excellent point. Rune and I were discussing this earlier. This is definitely something we need to address. Should we go ahead with these changes, it will be. Excellent question. Thanks.

Reference: http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/2000-02-03-pub.shtml

2000, March 8th - Google Groups
Maybe just me, I can take the firing rate, but that damn equip delay really
kills my archers.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

2000, August 1st - Google Groups
i) Oh, your GM Archer appears to have missed 10 times in a row.
ii) Oh, look at that I have full health and mana, and you cant drink a
potion without that stupid re-arm delay penalty. Kal Vas ... ooOOoo

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... m+delay%22#

2000, October 31st - Google Groups
The arm delay is still far too long, even after the <so-called> adjustment,
and the fail rate for a gm archer is absolutely ridicules. (IMHO).

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... d806863ea7

2001, August 3rd - UOPowergamers.com
Archery is the weakest fighting skill, and only useful in few situations. It's advantage is that you can hit monsters (or players..) without having to stand directly next to them and getting hit back. The only other skill that allows you to do this is magery.
The drawbacks are the slow firing delay and long equip delay of the xbow and heavy xbow, the VERY limited range of bolts and arrows, the fact that you can't move until your weapon hits (or misses) it's target (Moving stops the shot, and that you can outrun arrows and bolts (!!).

Reference: http://www.uopowergamers.com/a-aug01.shtml

2002, March 8th - Google Groups
I didn't like dying, but i bore a grudging respect for them. They fought well,
and rarely relied on cheap tactics.(Deadly poison, the halberd no-equip delay
bug, etc..)

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

Present Day - Ultima Online Production Shards
Still sets the swing counter to zero when equipping/unequipping a weapon.

Reference: Kaivan

Now this is where the same question gets asked again...

How can you use the exp, eb, hally combo WHEN your weapon gets resetted back to 5 seconds for a standard tank mage IF there was no way to circumvent your delay by hally cycling that utilizes the wrestling timer???

There is not ONE single person here that can answer this questions because it's not physically possible due to the time constraints and the known mechanics that existed. That leaves us with but only one solution... hallys could be cycled by cirumventing the standard delay by some means. There are SEVERAL articles presented here in the past ranging from google groups and a Japanese player posting on his guild site explaining the ability to hally cycle or use the "zero delay attack" that the Japs dubbed it. This mechanic HAS to exist in order for the explosion, ebolt, hally combo to be possible.

Does this mean its era accurate and working intended at this very moment? No... the combat timer itself is not era accurate despite being relatively close to it but that doesn't cut it. You can't effectively have this known mechanic to function properly if other mechanics alter its functionality even to a slight degree.


Please stop arguing concepts that you clearly don't grasp now.

Thanks,
Faust

[Ulfrigg]

In your evidence it says that the equip delay isnt on other weapons!!!
At a time frame close to us, and the others prior to our post date are only about archery having a big delay.

2000, January 15th - Google Groups
Not true on either account as far as I know. The nerf on archery
included removing the ability to drink potions with a bow equipped and
then adding a horendously long equip delay for all types of bows.

RE:The equip delay is a real killer though, especially
since there doesn't seem to be one for the other weapons.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... +delay%22#

This has already been proven that they did, thats why we got the patch on it!

2. Swings advance during movement, when they should not

This i havent seen any evidence that proves either way so its pretty mutch open for discussion.

1. Swings hold, when they should not.

[Ulfrigg]

There is not ONE single person here that can answer this questions because it's not physically possible due to the time constraints and the known mechanics that existed. That leaves us with but only one solution... hallys could be cycled by cirumventing the standard delay by some means. There are SEVERAL articles presented here in the past ranging from google groups and a Japanese player posting on his guild site explaining the ability to hally cycle or use the "zero delay attack" that the Japs dubbed it. This mechanic HAS to exist in order for the explosion, ebolt, hally combo to be possible

Thats my point the haly continued to tick while being unequiped and then it held the timer witch made it possible to equip hit, with the zero delay attack aka insta hit.

Also that combo was so easy to do that everyone used it, even new players.

[FishinPro]

1/21/00:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... HtST7Uih0J

Yeah, exactly, I said as much the last time we all went around on
this one... People are just going to dump their mana and then move
in for the kill-shot with the halbred. The real bugs that need to
be addressed here are the ones that let people circumvent the melee
weapon attack delays.

[Faust]

Thats my point the haly continued to tick while being unequiped and then it held the timer witch made it possible to equip hit, with the zero delay attack aka insta hit.

Also that combo was so easy to do that everyone used it, even new players.

This is starting to become monotomy.

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously here? You do not bother to even consider how the original mechanics work even when explained to you and throw absurd explanations out there saying "this is how it was" when it's not even remotely close to how it actually worked.


+1 FishinPro

[Ulfrigg]

I know how they worked, but you seems to think they worked like archery.
I do see what you are trying to do thou, you want to make this server a big duel arena instead of the game it was. 1 class only playable in pvp and only 1 weapon can be used!!

You honestly belive it was hard to execute that combo back in the days?

Also you havent explained the dex/stamina bug yet.

[Faust]

Provide some humor with every single response son.

I'm just wondering out of curiousity... is your primary language English? Definitely not picking at your grammar, spelling, or anything related to the language. None of that really matters on a gaming forum. I just can't tell if there is some sort of language barrier, mental disability, or something creating a comprehension problem for you to not understand certain things. I'm in no way trying to insult you here but just wondering what is going on with you. I don't understand how you can overlook every response and create your own response that becomes more absurd than the previous one.

Not one single person is saying the exp, eb, hally combo was hard... the point behind the combo was to use it as an example based on game mechanics that are known. However, you seem to be unable to follow these mechanics since you continue to overlook them with every single response. This is why I am wondering if there is some sort of language barrier or mental disorder. You seem to be the only one that isn't following the concept.

I was just about to reiterate the same explanation that has been mentioned numerous times before in hopes that you would understand it this time around but not going to bother wasting anymore time on it.

Going to leave this for those that want to educate themselves on the decompiled demo project in order to get some understanding of the way they made the game.


UO Demo Project

Not going to suspect this will be of any use for you specificly Ulfrigg but maybe others that would prefer not to follow your path.

[Ulfrigg]

Nope my first language is Swedish, and i know my grammar sucks. But its still pretty scare that you dont understand when i try to explain to you like i would to a 10 year old kid.

I saw your post in pre cast thread, were you said you and kaivan had made up a new combat system "that suits you obviusly".

Same goes for you every post i have made you have begun to talk about other stuff instead.

I think you have a problem with realising Swings advance during movement and holding swing could actually be in at the same time