Blues attacking greys in town cannot call guards?

[Tanglewood]

Hi all,

The other day I was in town, I attacked a grey (he was definitely still grey when I had attacked him, ie had not yet turned blue). Now back in the day, from what I remember (Do correct me if i am wrong), if you were in town and were blue and attacked a grey, you could attack them without impunity until they turned blue again. You could also call guards on them if they attacked you back (because when they attack you they are technially attacking a blue character). Now the other day when I was in town, I was unable to call guards... it did not work.

I remember it was very dicy being in town when grey because you could be attacked without impunity and you could not attack back at blue players without having the guards called on you. This is one reason why you never really saw gray players just walking around in town. It is not just the fact that you could be outnumbered by blue players.

If my memory is correct, this badly needs to get fixed. If you are blue and you attack a grey player, when that grey player turns around and attacks you, you should be able to call guards. Blues should be able to attack greys without impunity and without risk of dying in town.

[Loathed]

while this may have been true at one time or another- 100% not during t2a. It was called being a "noto" pk- You go grey and someone attacks you you can kill and loot them, however u can't call guards on them nor can they call it on you- protecting yourself is not a criminal act. Reds are naturally guard whacked in town so no comparrison there but out of town it's the same- Think of it like this- if you can call guards on someone that is attacking u in town it would have to apply to the same lines of if you died you could give them a murder count.

[Kaivan]

Hi all,

The other day I was in town, I attacked a grey (he was definitely still grey when I had attacked him, ie had not yet turned blue). Now back in the day, from what I remember (Do correct me if i am wrong), if you were in town and were blue and attacked a grey, you could attack them without impunity until they turned blue again. You could also call guards on them if they attacked you back (because when they attack you they are technially attacking a blue character). Now the other day when I was in town, I was unable to call guards... it did not work.

I remember it was very dicy being in town when grey because you could be attacked without impunity and you could not attack back at blue players without having the guards called on you. This is one reason why you never really saw gray players just walking around in town. It is not just the fact that you could be outnumbered by blue players.

If my memory is correct, this badly needs to get fixed. If you are blue and you attack a grey player, when that grey player turns around and attacks you, you should be able to call guards. Blues should be able to attack greys without impunity and without risk of dying in town.

Criminal flags and aggressor lists are a complex issue to explain, particularly given the fact that they use the same representative default color. The best way to describe them is to handle them separately.

For a criminal flag, any player who commits a criminal action will have this flag associated with them for a total of two minutes from the last time that they performed an action that can be considered criminal. This means that the player will appear gray to anyone who sees them, and that person can be freely attacked by anyone. Some examples of criminal actions include looting the corpse of a blue player and attacking or doing damage to an innocent player.

For the aggressor list, a player can create an aggressor relationship between them and another player when they perform an action that is deemed aggressive. These relationships are one way, meaning the person who initially committed the aggressive act is now an aggressor to the victim. This relationship also lasts for two minutes, and is refreshed any time either person commits an aggressive action against the other person, which occurs when either player attacks or does damage to the other player. Like the criminal flag, the aggressor relationship can cause a player to appear gray to another player, however it is not universal to everyone, which is part of the complexity of this relationship.

In general, these are the ways that each of these two mechanics work, but the interaction between the two is what complicates matters. Specifically, there are many instances where a player will receive both a criminal flag and an aggressor relationship, and there are many instances where a player will receive only the aggressor relationship or the criminal flag. To explain this a bit further, I'll provide some examples.

---

First, let's look at an easy example to consider: Looting the corpse of an innocent player. In this circumstance, player A has died and their corpse has not decayed into a skeleton. Player B comes along and decides to loot player A. Once this happens, player B has committed a criminal action and will have the criminal flag set on them for a total of 2 minutes. If, say, 10 seconds later, player B decides to loot another item from player A's corpse, the time that the criminal flag is set for will reset to 2 minutes, leaving them gray for a total of 2 minutes and 10 seconds. In this example, player B is merely a criminal, and appears gray to everyone, allowing them to be attacked by anyone.

---

Second, let's look at a somewhat more complicated example: Two players in warring guilds. In this circumstance, player A and player B are in opposing guilds in a guild war, and player B attacks player A for the first time. Attacking is one of the actions that can cause a player to become both a criminal criminal and refresh or create an aggressor relationship. The way the game handles this scenario is that it first checks to see if performing that specific action against the victim can be deemed a criminal action. For the most part, the answer is usually yes, but there are a few exceptions. They include:

• Both players are in a warring guild.
• Both players are in the same guild.
• The victim is either a criminal or a murderer.
• The victim is perma-gray from stealing.
• The current attacker is considered a victim in an existing aggressor relationship (I'll get back to this later).
• The attacker had created the aggressor relationship when the victim was not innocent (again, more on this later).

So, in this case, we fill at least one of these requirements because both players are in a warring guild. This means that player B will not have the criminal flag set for attacking player A. Next, the game checks to see if an aggressor relationship exists between these two players or not. If such a relationship exists, the game refreshes the time until that relationship ends back to 2 minutes. However, if no such relationship exists, a new one way aggressor relationship is formed with player B marked as the aggressor to player A. At this point, the rest of the action takes place such as doing the damage or beginning swings at each other. Because of the complicated nature of these relationships, it's worth pointing out that in this scenario, neither player will appear gray to anyone else or to each other. This is due to the fact that aggressor relationships are on a one to one basis and the fact that these players are in warring guilds, which the client recognizes as a status that "supersedes" the normal aggressor coloring.

---

Next, we'll look at one that's slightly more complex than the last, and one that is identical to your situation: One player attacks another player, who is a criminal at the time that he is attacked, for the first time. So, in this case, player A is a criminal, and player B is an innocent player who attacks player A. In this scenario, the game does the same checks as before to determine whether to apply the criminal flag to player B. Referring to the above list, since player A is a criminal, player B does not receive a criminal flag when he attacks player A. The game then checks for an aggressor relationship. Since this is the first time that player A has been attacked by player B, the game creates a one way aggressor relationship with player B as the aggressor against player A.

Now, here's where it gets more complicated. Because neither player is in either a warring guild or in the same guild, the game falls to the next set of colors to display which is the same color for a criminal flag, gray. In this case, player B will now appear gray to player A, which designates that player A is free to attack player B without any risk. For the rest of the players, player B still appears blue because he hasn't committed a criminal action, and player A may still appear gray since he could still have some amount of the two minutes remaining on his original criminal timer.

To add even more complexity, we can consider what happens during the rest of the fight. Suppose that player A was a criminal for only 10 seconds when player B attacked him. This means that player A will continue to appear gray to everyone for 1 minute and 50 seconds. However, when player B attacks player A, that player is marked as the one way aggressor of the other player, which means that player A may attack player B without any risk. But, why is this the case? Well, if we consider what happens when player A does damage to or attacks player B, that game makes the same checks it always does. First it checks to see if that action is a criminal action. Again, referring to the above list, we find that the current attacker (player A) is already a victim in an existing aggressor relationship with player B. This means that player A will not be flagged as a criminal for attacking player B (think of it as an act of self defense). After making the criminal check, the game will then check to see if an aggressor relationship exists. In this case, the game finds the one way aggressor relationship from player B to player A. This means that instead of creating a new one way relationship the game will refresh the existing relationship, despite the fact that the person refreshing the aggression relationship is not the person who initially committed the aggression.

To add one last layer of complexity onto this, let's consider what happens when player B does damage to player A 3 minutes after player A committed a criminal act. In this case, player A has been considered innocent for a full minute and both players will appear innocent to the rest of the world, but will appear gray to each other. Again, we run through the checks. Player B does damage to player A, which checks the above rules and finds that since player B first created the aggressor relationship when player A was a criminal, the action is not considered a criminal one. Then, the game goes on about its business refreshing the existing relationship. In this way, player B can continue to pursue player A, even though player A is now considered innocent.

---

As a last example, lets consider another complicated situation: An innocent player is attacked by another innocent player for the first time. In this case, player B attacks player A. Here, we run through the checks and find that none of the rules that prevent player B from becoming a criminal apply. So, in this case, player B has the criminal flag set on them. The game then checks for an aggressor relationship and finds none, so it sets up a relationship with player B acting as the aggressor to player A. In this case, player B will appear gray to everyone, and player A will appear blue to everyone, including player B.

But now, lets consider some complicated behavior that occurs as a result of this situation. First we note that any damage that player A does to player B will not cause player A to become a criminal. This is for the same reason as before: player A is a victim of player B, and any attacks that player A makes on player B are in self defense (although the aggression timer is refreshed). However, if player B attacks or does damage to player A, the checks will find that player B is indeed a criminal. This is because player B attacked player A while player A was innocent, and as long as player A remains innocent, every time player B attacks or does damage to player A, the criminal timer will be refreshed (For anyone who's wondering, if a criminal action is committed by player A at this time, it grants a temporary reprieve where player B cannot refresh their criminal timer by damaging or attacking player A; however the game still remembers the initial state that player A was in when the relationship was first created. This will cause player B to become criminal again on the very next attack or damage following the end of player A's criminal time). In this scenario, if the fight goes into town and player B attacks or does damage to player A for any reason, that action - which is considered a new criminal action - will allow any player to call guards and kill player B.

---

I know that the above explanation was extremely long winded, but the details of aggressor relationships can be extremely complicated and it takes specific examples to properly show what's going on. Ultimately, I hope that I've cleared up how these relationships and flags work.

[FishinPro]

I know that the above explanation was extremely long winded, but the details of aggressor relationships can be extremely complicated and it takes specific examples to properly show what's going on. Ultimately, I hope that I've cleared up how these relationships and flags work.

You complicate things...


G is Grey Player..............B is Blue Player


In Town: B attacks G...B is now grey to G...G can freely attack B because B is now grey to G only...

[jimm1432]

I know that the above explanation was extremely long winded, but the details of aggressor relationships can be extremely complicated and it takes specific examples to properly show what's going on. Ultimately, I hope that I've cleared up how these relationships and flags work.

You complicate things...


G is Grey Player..............B is Blue Player


In Town: B attacks G...B is now grey to G...G can freely attack B because B is now grey to G only...

+1 and at OP LOL just LOL. your the sorta dude that attacks the lich in gy then runs to gz looking for help....

[Nystal]

My first week on OSI in T2A, a Grey was baiting me in Britain, I attacked him thinking I was doing the world justice. With my 50HP he kinda splatted me pretty fast and then looted me dry...

So yeah, I remember vividly in T2A that if you attack a grey you turn grey to him unless he had initially turned grey attacking/stealing from you.