Shadow Item Count Optimization:

[Faust]

There is one possible solution that just came to mind for some item count optmization. There are many instances where people will utilize 'shadow' items for storage purposes instead of actually placing them in the contents of a container. For example, take 125 mortar & pestles placing them into a container with in a house. Break that container and all 125 items remain there in a shadow form on top of each other. This can be done repeatedly storing thousands upon thousands of items. The client may handle these items for optimization purposes when it comes to player interaction, etc... but that really isn't my concern. The only concern is to reduce the item count or optimize it.

Why could we not just produce a new item property for the shadow items listing the number of items hidden behind it that would remove these items completely from the world itself in a physical sense?

During any method process in the code for removing an item on top could simply produce a carbon copy behind it. This would only be possible with items containing the exact same property listings of course.

Hard to tell how many items are out there like this though. So it might not be a bad idea to run a small script checking/verifying how many there are off hand. These type of items are a concern to me. I know that several of my mule tools are stored like this in my castle with thousands upon thousands stacked on top of each other in shadow form. There is no point in keeping 125 of these items in containers that eventually produces a limit.

[Blaise]

These type of items are a concern to me. I know that several of my mule tools are stored like this in my castle with thousands upon thousands stacked on top of each other in shadow form. There is no point in keeping 125 of these items in containers that eventually produces a limit.

I'm of the opinion that there's no point in keeping even 125 of any particular tool/item in any case unless it's some sort of rarity that you're hoarding for future profits as some form of savings/investment.
Why would you have thousands upon thousands of anything stacked on a single tile?
Oh that's right, because you're hoarding and don't give a shit about the impact, even moreso because you don't play anymore?

Not trying to rage on this, but the implications of what you just shared make it seem like you're only pretending to care.

When are you, or the entire shard, going to use thousands upon thousands of any single tool/item?
Seriously, is it that hard to obtain more, that one day you figured you'd just create a few thousand, in case you actually come back to play and don't quit for like 2-3 decades?

[Faust]

Given the fact that I used a few hundred mortar & pestles recently and still counting to restock my potion keg walls in my castle kind of just took a squat on your post son.

Frankly, it does not matter what you think about my playstyle... my type of playstyle is based on self efficiency compacted with play longtivity without having to go back to the mule in the near future. I'm not going to sacrifice my time or playstyle to make you or anyone else happy. However, offering ideas to optimize era accurate mechanics or fixate non-era accurate mechanics is a completely different story.

Also, not to mention there are a few others that use my castle on top of it... so it's not like it's just me using it. We are all close friends/family that pretty much share all our wealth and items in the game.

[Blaise]

Yeah, don't take it as an insult, just kinda irritating that you, and your multiple friends and family members couldn't come up with a better solution than multiple stacks of thousands of items.

Out of an assumed 45+ characters, one could possibly craft those items as needed, even en masse overnight, any day? There is no need at all for that many items, considering how easy it is to craft. Let me guess, you bought all those items from an NPC? Oh wait, that's right, you clicked the Play button on the craft macro for it and walked away.

You seem like a fairly intelligent individual, so it strikes me as odd that you would stoop to such a poor solution.

[Hicha]

There is one possible solution that just came to mind for some item count optmization. There are many instances where people will utilize 'shadow' items for storage purposes instead of actually placing them in the contents of a container. For example, take 125 mortar & pestles placing them into a container with in a house. Break that container and all 125 items remain there in a shadow form on top of each other. This can be done repeatedly storing thousands upon thousands of items. The client may handle these items for optimization purposes when it comes to player interaction, etc... but that really isn't my concern. The only concern is to reduce the item count or optimize it.

Why could we not just produce a new item property for the shadow items listing the number of items hidden behind it that would remove these items completely from the world itself in a physical sense?

During any method process in the code for removing an item on top could simply produce a carbon copy behind it. This would only be possible with items containing the exact same property listings of course.

Hard to tell how many items are out there like this though. So it might not be a bad idea to run a small script checking/verifying how many there are off hand. These type of items are a concern to me. I know that several of my mule tools are stored like this in my castle with thousands upon thousands stacked on top of each other in shadow form. There is no point in keeping 125 of these items in containers that eventually produces a limit.

While I find your solution valid and logical, I don't see its implementation making any sort of impact on the item count for the server. I don't know anyone that stores items in that fashion; quite frankly the only time I've seen this type of storage in play is either due to a carpet bomb or EVing someone's storage vault because they forgot to lock down their containers.

I think the main issue with item count is two things:

1. People still hoarding items because they firmly believe another CUB is going to happen.
2. Home decorations.

I think the bigger of the two culprits is actually the second one. Let's look at Vesper Rune Library:

Now this keep looks amazing, but just as well, there's got to be several thousand items on the roof alone. How many other people have decorated homes like this? Maybe they have less... maybe they did more.

In an effort to help curb these random ideas of 'item optimization', maybe Derrick should run some scripts and see what type of hoarding exists; ie: run a script to see total items per household, then sort by greatest offender and see why they have so many items in their homes, how they are being utilized, or what they are being kept for (decor, CUB, player vendor, guildhouse, etc.)

[Galendae]

CUB 2 is inevitable.... Even Derrick has probably come to that conclusion. Alas, my stuff decayed. I am sure Telamon has it now, along with everyone elses crap. The hoarders have almost guaranteed a CUB II. Saves are getting long.

[Cattie B]

Well I hate to admit it, but my deco buiz is prob not helping at all... thats just one house that LS and I did... Ive done quiet a few lol ...

[Light Shade]

I think the main issue with item count is two things:

1. People still hoarding items because they firmly believe another CUB is going to happen.
2. Home decorations.

I think the bigger of the two culprits is actually the second one. Let's look at Vesper Rune Library:

keep.jpg

Now this keep looks amazing, but just as well, there's got to be several thousand items on the roof alone. How many other people have decorated homes like this? Maybe they have less... maybe they did more.

Hating on my house.

Its not nearly as many items as you give it credit for, but it is quite a few.

I think Derrick stated in another thread that the biggest problem with item count was what the players were actually carrying in their backpacks. There is a large disposition towards PvP characters on this shard.

ie. Tank Mage gears up with red, yellow, purple, white, blue pots... This takes them out of the keg and creates a ton of extra items. Then add the 10 or so trapped pouches to avoid the para-gank. Various magic items, reagents, runes, food...etc... It basically all adds up.

Granted, item count will continue to increase as people are simply horders...but I think a lot of it has to do with unused characters that are all geared up on accounts that are no longer used. Even newbie characters will start with a spell book, 8 of each reagent, a book, a candle, shirt, pants, shoes, several spells, perhaps a hat. That can be 20 items right there.

I still think, short of deleting accounts with much more aggressive criteria than used before, that we're pretty much stuck with what we've got. Anything else is just a temporary band-aid that will be revisited again and again.

We all know that there's roughly 3,500 houses on UOSA. If we assume that everyone has 1,000 items in their house(not actually the case at all), that's still only like 3,000,000 items... That still leaves over 5,000,000 items elsewhere in the world. Just rough numbers, but i'm just trying to impress that the item count in houses probably isn't the real path to a solution here.

As far as Faust's suggestion is concerned, I do not personally know if enough people do this to make it worth the time. Sure, some people absolutely "shadow" items, but I have never actually done it intentionally....aside from a good ole fashioned carpet bombing. I would think that it would not make a noticeable impact on save times simply because I do not believe enough people utilize this technique. I could be wrong, though, and it would take Derrick running some sweeps on items to verify whether people do or not.

If it can help, though, go for it.

For me, though, the world save times is really a non-issue at the end of the day. I started playing games on a Commodore 64. I can wait a few seconds for UO.

-L/S

[Blaise]

short of deleting accounts with much more aggressive criteria than used before
-L/S

As far as I understand it, accounts are not deleted here. More agressive would be any deleting at all.

[Light Shade]

short of deleting accounts with much more aggressive criteria than used before
-L/S

As far as I understand it, accounts are not deleted here. More agressive would be any deleting at all.

I was referring to comments made by Derrick in another thread where he ran tests to see how many items could be eliminated by deleting certain unused and un-developed accounts.

[Hicha]

Hating on my house.

Its not nearly as many items as you give it credit for, but it is quite a few.

Not hating at all; in fact it's one of the most enjoyable libraries to visit (was my favorite back when felix owned it) and the decor makes it that much more pleasant. The creativity you (and the rest of the server population) put into decorating their homes makes UO that much more of a vibrant and unique environment, and if decorating server-wide adds 5-10 seconds to save time, its a worthy sacrifice, imo.

I'm all for just increasing the time between server saves, maybe once per hour would be more realistic. I know there's due diligence behind it, but how often does the server really crash anyway, and if it were, would it really kill you to lose an hour of farm time?

[Faust]

While I find your solution valid and logical, I don't see its implementation making any sort of impact on the item count for the server. I don't know anyone that stores items in that fashion; quite frankly the only time I've seen this type of storage in play is either due to a carpet bomb or EVing someone's storage vault because they forgot to lock down their containers.

In an effort to help curb these random ideas of 'item optimization', maybe Derrick should run some scripts and see what type of hoarding exists; ie: run a script to see total items per household, then sort by greatest offender and see why they have so many items in their homes, how they are being utilized, or what they are being kept for (decor, CUB, player vendor, guildhouse, etc.)

That was why I suggested the idea of testing to see how many of these items actually exist in this fashion to see the impact mattered for such a change.

Housing is not really the underlining issue with the item count and Derrick already stated that in the other thread that was locked(he has conducted tests for item count). The housing will eventually bottom out since there are a limited amount of spots that can exist on top of the limited amount of Z axis tiles an item can exist too. The only anomaly to this notion are shadow items that can stack forever with no end in sight.

The other problem is inactive accounts since that is a problem with no absolute end unlike the limited housing locations and item locations with in that housing.

[Naljier]

'grand idea'

1 house per account, will surely reduce the global item count also

[Hemperor]

if I understand correctly, this still isn't really possible. Those 125 mortar and pestles all have at least some different properties, like creation date, and other things which I think would matter but can't think of off the top of my head, and then with other items there are even far more properties.

The amount this would help in comparison to how much time and effort it would take to rework things to compensate for these differentiating properties doesn't seem worth it in my mind.

This is just a rough analysis of how I think I understand your suggestion, could be wrong :p

edit: hi faust

[Faust]

This would only be possible with items containing the exact same property listings of course.

You do make a good point on the creation date property though.

The data could be placed into an array or list, but like you mentioned that would start getting more complex than what it's worth.

I could just imagine one mishap or error leading to dupe bugs or the loss of the shadow items altogether.