Patch 77 - December 24, 2008: Spells, Pathfinding, Stealing

[Drull]

There seems to be a lot of AI functions that were broken from this patch. The energy vortex trick is no longer working and needs to be fixed too. I'm not sure what else there might be. Hopefully not a whole lot.

All those that keep thinking the thief changes isn't accurate here is an article from the Stratics web site.

Getting Attacked

Often times aggravated victims, who lose there goods to you, will attack in an attempt to get there stuff back. Now one of two things will happen, upon being attacked the opponent will highlight grey, which means your free to attack back and kill if you got the skill too. Or they will highlight blue, if they turn up blue you cannot attack back or you will be flagged an aggressor and then be guard killed. Even out of town you want to avoid the blue attacker, for if you win the battle he can still give you a murder count and kick you out of the guild for a week. The best thing to do is run when they highlight blue, and be careful to not auto-attack and hit him, or he can report you if he dies later. Now to prevent him from dying later and giving you a count, is to simply put your valuables in the bank and commit thieving suicide, or purposely get guard killed.

This is a 2nd source of information in regard to this topic. We have the words from the leading Ultima Online developer at the time discussing the changes, and we also have an article written at Stratics that clearly demostrates this change. There is no reason to discuss if it ever existed or not from now on.

Regardless of whether it was like that before, this change will destroy an entire template and class of players on this server. You know the old saying "If it ain't broken then don't fix it." This server is by far the best server I've played in a long time and it is very disturbing to see that like all of the other servers, changes are being made that clearly are going to have a negative impact on the playerbase. When I came here from Divinity there was a population of about 145 people on at a time...now there is 350+ on at a time. Question is why when obviously how it was 2 days ago was working quite well, do people got to mess around and change shit. The changes pretty much screwed bards, thieves, and tamers. Though change to thieves won't really have much effect but dropping the amount of thieves on the server, the rest will just start a chain reaction. Less farmers in dungeons, less pks roaming around looking for farmers, and ultimately leaving nothing but the PvPers to run around looking for each other until they grow tired of it and move on. Goes without saying, the very disease each and every other server has suffered from. SecondAge was T2a accurate for the most part 2 days ago. Adding in the shitty parts of T2a might make it seem more accurate, but it ain't gonna get you a 600+ population.

BTW Dragons have NEVER casted Mass Curse...so don't you think if we are trying to stay T2a accurate you might think about getting rid of that?

Agreed

I just started here a couple days ago, looking very forward to playing a thief here. I've got a 7x thief on Divinity already, but I was totally willing to spend the weeks to make one here. Now? I dunno. Seems like something that was added to needlessly frustrate people for the sake of selectively adding "accuracies". Boourns.

[Abyss]

Dragons cast mass curse when their magery has been trained to 60+

Correct...but it is not T2a accurate nor was it ever added in any other era for that matter.

@Abyss: It's accurate, and stealing was such a problem here. NONE of the thieves did anything to earn their skill other than afk macro and all they have to do is hit their hotkeys to steal shit, hardly accurate either. This is one major blow to thieves that I'm all smiles about, I can only dream of more!

Like I told Faust...show me the patch notes where this was implemented and not just a bunch of old chat logs and statements made regarding adding it in. I played a thief throughout this entire era and I find it hard to believe that my combat mage just coincidently NEVER recieved a count throughout all the times I fought back when attacked. Even so, lets say maybe the spell delays and the thieving change (which referring to the thieving I am not convinced at all) are accurate...what about the changes made to taming and barding? There is no way anyone could possibly tell me or any other player for that mater that it is T2a accurate. All I see is a change that screws with Dragon control so Pks have easier access to killing tamers in dungeons. PKs whining=Mass Curse FTW

As far as the barding goes hopefully it's just the AI thing that is broken.

PS. UOHOC is not a patch confirmation...it is an old chat log. If everything was implemented that was stated who knows where UO would have went. Can you say Perma Red???

[Faust]

I will ask you again Abyss. What is your excuse for the Stratics resource as well? We have two resources that CLEARLY states that it existed. I have told you that many patch notes have been left out over the years. I have even gave you examples. Where is the patch notes for the removal of the EV trick? Where is the patch note for the removal of the deceit LLRoom bugged area? Where is the patch note for the teeter tot affect for debuffs and buffs? I can go on and on because there are patches like this that was never mentioned or very ambigous. There are more than ONE resource backing up the thieving changes along with my memory and many others as well that remember when this patch was released. Accuracy is more important than a personal initiative.

PS
A stratics article about how stealing works isn't a "chat log" discussing upcoming changes... People really need to understand the concept of researching for reverse engineering before they delve into thinking they're some expert developer on these issues.

[Virindi1]

I just read through 3 pages of posts and I still have yet to find a confirmation... I don't really care so much one way or the other, I'd just like to get a straight answer.

If I understand this correctly, the PVP Theif template, for all intents and purposes, is no longer applicable? This is due to murder counts from stealing being an "aggressive action" and therefore you can get a murder count should you kill the person retaliating, and then booted from the theives guild?

Obviously, the above sentence is not technically correct - but that's essentially what this change has done? Once again, I'm looking for a straight answer please.

Thank you staff and everyone else for all your hard work,
Solidarity,
-v.

[chumbucket]

"hey chum, what'd you get for Christmas?"

• Stealing is an aggressive act for the purpose of determining murder.

I got told that I'm not coming back to this shard, sacrificed on the altar of era accuracy. Good luck and good times to you all. Though this is still the best shard ever for non-thieves.

[Abyss]

I will ask you again Abyss. What is your excuse for the Stratics resource as well? We have two resources that CLEARLY states that it existed. I have told you that many patch notes have been left out over the years. I have even gave you examples. Where is the patch notes for the removal of the EV trick? Where is the patch note for the removal of the deceit LLRoom bugged area? Where is the patch note for the teeter tot affect for debuffs and buffs? I can go on and on because there are patches like this that was never mentioned or very ambigous. There are more than ONE resource backing up the thieving changes along with my memory and many others as well that remember when this patch was released. Accuracy is more important than a personal initiative.

Well I guess in the same sense I could ask you what your excuse is for having these "two resources" that claim that such a thing was added to the game all the while showing no proof of it actually being added. Of course there might have been a few fixes that were not mentioned, but there is a big difference between mending up a few bugs here and there versus changing the way an entire playstyle works without having some sort of patch notes on it. Like I told you before...wrong or right...not everyone that plays here is going to understand your "Bob" explanation nor understand why there is no written records of such a change ever being made aside from a post on Stratics and the mention of it being planned in UOHOC. Players that understand a thing or two about patch notes will want to see them, and when your answers to them sound more like you are blowing smoke up their ass, they are just going to think you are trying to get around the fact that maybe someone made a mistake. I'm not saying I couldn't be mistaken, but trust me...you may be all hard about what your "experience" may be, but just because you say so doesn't mean everyone is going to believe it.

PS
A stratics article about how stealing works isn't a "chat log" discussing upcoming changes... People really need to understand the concept of researching for reverse engineering before they delve into thinking they're some expert developer on these issues.

PS
Stratics is not UOHOC, which UOHOC was the only thing I referred to as an "old chat log." You might try reading carefully what posts you are responding to before throwing digs at people. Especially when you are trying to insult their intelligence. Good try though *thumbs up*


PPS UOHOC (Make sure you read this part as not to confuse with Stratics)
If you go back and look, you'll see alot of statements regarding things they wanted to add during the T2a era that they never did. An idea is not set in stone, hence an idea is not a resource.

Back to 1...

[Akanigit]

I'm perfectly fine with all of the stealing changes. I am a thief and I have always enjoyed being a stealth thief and loved trying to escape without the person having knowledge of me taking something. I have noticed on here the majority of the thieves are horrible. They run around following people stealing trivial items trying to annoy them and to flag themselves to someone in hopes the person will be fed up enough to just attack. I can understand that it's a gameplay choice, it's part of the game and all of that but it was an incredible annoyance. I am glad to see it go and hopefully some of these annoying thieves clogging my streets with it.

Oh and I do not remember getting a murder count for killing somebody I stole from and killed on osi. I do remember rarely seeing another thief doing it so maybe it was implemented and I just never noticed.

[Abyss]

I'm perfectly fine with all of the stealing changes. I am a thief and I have always enjoyed being a stealth thief and loved trying to escape without the person having knowledge of me taking something. I have noticed on here the majority of the thieves are horrible. They run around following people stealing trivial items trying to annoy them and to flag themselves to someone in hopes the person will be fed up enough to just attack. I can understand that it's a gameplay choice, it's part of the game and all of that but it was an incredible annoyance. I am glad to see it go and hopefully some of these annoying thieves clogging my streets with it.

Oh and I not remember getting a murder count for killing somebody I stole from on osi. I do remember never seeing another thief doing it so maybe it was implemented and I just never noticed.

I definately think if they plan on kleeping this they should fix it so thieves can't be counted for auto-attacks unless they do up to half-life damage or more. People are just going to grief this way by killing themselves after a thief auto-attacks. Kind of like what those pansy blues do when they can't win a fight against you...they kill themselves in a safe location and give you a count as if they have something to be proud of.

[Akanigit]

[/quote]I definately think if they plan on kleeping this they should fix it so thieves can't be counted for auto-attacks unless they do up to half-life damage or more. People are just going to grief this way by killing themselves after a thief auto-attacks. Kind of like what those pansy blues do when they can't win a fight against you...they kill themselves in a safe location and give you a count as if they have something to be proud of.[/quote]

I agree with you completely, I am in favor of what was era accurate more than I am my own personal preferences. I also think though if I choose to attack back or auto attack I should not be given a murder count, I can see that ruining all of my fun. I just hope they find away to curb the growth on all these lame grief thieves that clutter the server.

[Ebywok]

"hey chum, what'd you get for Christmas?"

• Stealing is an aggressive act for the purpose of determining murder.

I got told that I'm not coming back to this shard, sacrificed on the altar of era accuracy. Good luck and good times to you all. Though this is still the best shard ever for non-thieves.

In addition to the patch, your absence will be a devastating blow to petty theft. I will double my efforts when I rejoin the shard full time!!!

[DrFaustus]

"hey chum, what'd you get for Christmas?"

• Stealing is an aggressive act for the purpose of determining murder.

I got told that I'm not coming back to this shard, sacrificed on the altar of era accuracy. Good luck and good times to you all. Though this is still the best shard ever for non-thieves.

Too bad it was the best shard for everyone prior to this.

[Kaivan]

Here is a patch note from late UOR citing the removal of aggressive stealing:

Publish 16 - PvP and Felucca enhancements Jul 23 2002 11:37AM CST

• Stealing will no longer be considered an aggressive act, although it will continue to be a criminal act (players will not be able to report a thief for murder if they attack the thief but lose the fight). This applies to all of Felucca.

If you search the patch notes, HoC chats, and Stratics guides between February 1999 and 2003, there is no mention anywhere of any change to the aggressive nature of stealing throughout that time except the patch notes for the thieves guild, and the patch notes for the removal of aggressive stealing in 1999 and 2002 respectively. Thus, we can only assume that stealing maintained its aggressive stealing nature throughout the entire time. As for the HoC chat, it's fairly clear that the question and following explanation were about something that was already on the servers, and was something that applied to aggressive actions. If you read the chat, DD explains that if you attack a thief who recently stole from you, you will NOT become the aggressor of the fight. The only way this particular situation can develop is if you were already an aggressor to the person who you had just stolen from. This functionality existed during T2A and UOR and was a VERY common tactic used by reds and greys (anyone recall the explosion your horse and hop on for zero damage and grey status tactic) to initiate fights that they would not take murder counts for participating in because they would not be the aggressor to the person who attacked them, and could respond with lethal force without fear of taking a murder count.

[Slade]

Here is a patch note from late UOR citing the removal of aggressive stealing:

Publish 16 - PvP and Felucca enhancements Jul 23 2002 11:37AM CST

• Stealing will no longer be considered an aggressive act, although it will continue to be a criminal act (players will not be able to report a thief for murder if they attack the thief but lose the fight). This applies to all of Felucca.

Thank you for proving my point that this change was made to appease the idiots leading up to the implementation of trammel. Once trammel was in, there was no longer any reason to fuck with thieves and they reverted Felucca back to the way it should have always been. If you're too stupid to:

A) Not bank in Britain
B) Not put shit in a bag
C) Not attack thieves

then you deserve whatever you've got coming to you.


I'm just glad that we have it in quotes.

[Ebywok]

If you read the chat, DD explains that if you attack a thief who recently stole from you, you will NOT become the aggressor of the fight. The only way this particular situation can develop is if you were already an aggressor to the person who you had just stolen from. This functionality existed during T2A and UOR and was a VERY common tactic used by reds and greys (anyone recall the explosion your horse and hop on for zero damage and grey status tactic) to initiate fights that they would not take murder counts for participating in because they would not be the aggressor to the person who attacked them, and could respond with lethal force without fear of taking a murder count.

Ok... that is common sense. If the thief steals, they are the aggressor. If you attack a non-perma thief, you are the aggressor...

Its ridiculous that if they attack us after we steal from them, not only can we no longer defend ourselves, but we can't even safely continue to steal because we may get guard wacked... This patch just cripples the thieving community.

[Abyss]

Here is a patch note from late UOR citing the removal of aggressive stealing:

Publish 16 - PvP and Felucca enhancements Jul 23 2002 11:37AM CST

• Stealing will no longer be considered an aggressive act, although it will continue to be a criminal act (players will not be able to report a thief for murder if they attack the thief but lose the fight). This applies to all of Felucca.

If you search the patch notes, HoC chats, and Stratics guides between February 1999 and 2003, there is no mention anywhere of any change to the aggressive nature of stealing throughout that time except the patch notes for the thieves guild, and the patch notes for the removal of aggressive stealing in 1999 and 2002 respectively. Thus, we can only assume that stealing maintained its aggressive stealing nature throughout the entire time. As for the HoC chat, it's fairly clear that the question and following explanation were about something that was already on the servers, and was something that applied to aggressive actions. If you read the chat, DD explains that if you attack a thief who recently stole from you, you will NOT become the aggressor of the fight. The only way this particular situation can develop is if you were already an aggressor to the person who you had just stolen from. This functionality existed during T2A and UOR and was a VERY common tactic used by reds and greys (anyone recall the explosion your horse and hop on for zero damage and grey status tactic) to initiate fights that they would not take murder counts for participating in because they would not be the aggressor to the person who attacked them, and could respond with lethal force without fear of taking a murder count.

Finally some solid proof...I stand corrected.

Take notes Faust...you can learn from this guy right here. All the players want is clearly stated answers to their clearly stated quesions. That's all dude.