T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

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Arcanus
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T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Arcanus »

Major PvP Issues:

1. Weapon timers. Currently, the delay before swinging your weapon is derived from the previous weapon you had equipped. This allows people to use a fast weapon like a katana, then switch to a halberd and only have to wait out a katana swing timer before the hally wack. This means it’s often a better idea to run in with your katana first, to get that “free katana swing”, before you switch to the fast hally wack. This is one of the first basic tactics you pick up when PvPing here.

This phenomenon was completely absent during T2A, because you had to wait out the slower weapon’s (halberd usually) swing timer regardless of the other weapons you had equipped before or after, making it pointless to switch to your katana after a hally swing (you might as well just get another hally swing in). Tank mages would exclusively rely on their halberd during combos. Katana play was usually relegated to low mana situations.

Honestly, if everything else remains constant, I would rather keep it how it is now, or reverse the phenomenon (hally then fast kat swing), because it’s more fun, and introduces more tactics. This also ties directly in with how double hits work here, which is also off. People did not use a faster weapon (katana) to initiate a double hit in T2A. The anecdotal evidence on the “Stamina Loss and Swing Timer” thread corroborates this claim. The mechanics of true double hitting are still pretty mysterious to me, and to be honest, I did not use double hits back in T2A.

2. Auto-unequipping when you target a spell. Currently, the game automatically unequips you (bypassing any normal object delay) when you target a spell, either through a macro (last target/target self/etc) or by manually clicking. Before the advent of third party programs and arming macros built into the client, people used to manually drag weapons to and from their paper dolls. I’m pretty damned sure you couldn’t just target something with your weapon equipped and it would magically fall into your backpack then release the spell.

3. Item usage with a target cursor. Currently, you can use items like potions and pouches with a target cursor up, and not lose the cursor.

4. Disrupts. Already beaten to death. Debuffs and harm were a consistent and reliable way of disrupting spells.

Evidence for debuff disrupts (it is a UO:R (Jul 2000) screenshot, but no patch notes on the changing of this functionality suggests it existed prior to UO:R):
Image

Evidence for magic arrow/harm disrupts (taken in Jan 2000):
Image

5. Horse stamina. Horses have a ridiculous amount of stamina, or the rate at which it is lost is way too slow. I have not been able to run my mount out of stamina during any normal game play situations (and I usually run around like a bat out of hell). In T2A, your horse would run out of stamina fairly quickly (I’d guesstimate maybe after about 30 seconds of solid galloping), and I bet many of us have keen memories of guildies lagging behind to feed their horse an apple.

6. Self disrupts. Currently, any type of equipping is blocked during the spell casting ritual. I believe in the era, you could equip anything while casting a spell and disrupt yourself.


Minor issues:

7. Gate dispelling. When using the Dispel Field spell on a gate, both sides of the gate are dispelled. Only the side which was targeted should be dispelled.

8. [frozen] indicator. This currently manifests itself in the form of a separate string above a person when you use the “all names” macro. This may seem very nitpicky, but the reason I’m bringing it up is because this confuses Razor, which will then think the person’s name is “[frozen]”. You can see this in the Razor hit % indicators (it will say “[frozen]’s stats: [82%]”) and if you are in a party with them, their name will appear as “[frozen]” in the Razor auto-map. The correct way to display the “frozen” status is with a suffix of “(frozen)” on the same line that displays the character’s name.

Evidence:
Image

9. Failing meditation at GM. I don't remember this happening. Anyone else?

10. Murderers. Reds should have a "The Murderer..." title and cannot be in an Order or Chaos guild.
Last edited by Arcanus on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:43 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by alatar »

My biggest concerns are #'s 4, 5, & 6.
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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by malice-tg »

Arcanus wrote:Major PvP Issues:

1. Weapon timers. Currently, the delay before swinging your weapon is derived from the previous weapon you had equipped. This allows people to use a fast weapon like a katana, then switch to a halberd and only have to wait out a katana swing timer before the hally wack. This means it’s often a better idea to run in with your katana first, to get that “free katana swing”, before you switch to the fast hally wack. This is one of the first basic tactics you pick up when PvPing here.

This phenomenon was completely absent during T2A, because you had to wait out the slower weapon’s (halberd usually) swing timer regardless of the other weapons you had equipped before or after, making it pointless to switch to your katana after a hally swing (you might as well just get another hally swing in). Tank mages would exclusively rely on their halberd during combos. Katana play was usually relegated to low mana situations.

Honestly, if everything else remains constant, I would rather keep it how it is now, or reverse the phenomenon (hally then fast kat swing), because it’s more fun, and introduces more tactics. This also ties directly in with how double hits work here, which is also off. People did not use a faster weapon (katana) to initiate a double hit in T2A. The anecdotal evidence on the “Stamina Loss and Swing Timer” thread corroborates this claim. The mechanics of true double hitting are still pretty mysterious to me, and to be honest, I did not use double hits back in T2A.
Yes I agree the way it is now with double hits and swing timers is off. derrick is working on it however. basically the end result should be a situation where when you cast an ebolt. your hally is rdy to rock again.
Arcanus wrote:2. Auto-unequipping when you target a spell. Currently, the game automatically unequips you (bypassing any normal object delay) when you target a spell, either through a macro (last target/target self/etc) or by manually clicking. Before the advent of third party programs and arming macros built into the client, people used to manually drag weapons to and from their paper dolls. I’m pretty damned sure you couldn’t just target something with your weapon equipped and it would magically fall into your backpack then release the spell.
I think this is pointless to code in because razor disarms easily for everyone, and you need razor to play. unless i missed the point?
Arcanus wrote:3. Item usage with a target cursor. Currently, you can use items like potions and pouches with a target cursor up, and not lose the cursor.
ya i agree 100% i was just talking about this the other day good point and it DOES make a difference. id love to see this changed.


Arcanus wrote:4. Disrupts. Already beaten to death. Debuffs and harm were a consistent and reliable way of disrupting spells.
I disagree with this however harm did disrupt sometimes mainly I used it to load my hally. harm does disrupt sometimes now if its not resisted.

those pictures are from UOR and by then everything changed. inscription / protection was a counter to disrupts even with zero skill it was 25% chance of protection. lumberjackers, instant swing timers, hammer double hits, parablows... a magic arrow was the least of your worries.

during the era time period a well timed ebolt / hally / harm was the way to disrupt. i would have laughed at a guy shooting magic arrow at me while I tooled on him with my halberd / harm/ ebolt. killing a guy with all red with a magic arrow was like an extra insult. that could have been all that guy was doing in the picture.

i magic arrow killed someone on this server the other day.
Arcanus wrote:5. Horse stamina. Horses have a ridiculous amount of stamina, or the rate at which it is lost is way too slow. I have not been able to run my mount out of stamina during any normal game play situations (and I usually run around like a bat out of hell). In T2A, your horse would run out of stamina fairly quickly (I’d guesstimate maybe after about 30 of solid galloping), and I bet many of us have keen memories of guildies lagging behind to feed their horse an apple.
horse stamina is pretty high. i have never tired my mount. as i recall from my memory on osi i could run from brit healer west to the xroads of skara / yew / brit and then to the yew gate north. about that time my horse would fatigue. still pretty far but if you run constantly it could be a problem.... the system used to give you a warning that the horse was about to give up however so you could make plans for fleeing!

Arcanus wrote:6. Self disrupts. Currently, any type of equipping is blocked during the spell casting ritual. I believe in the era, you could equip anything while casting a spell and disrupt yourself.
yes this was definitely in part of the era. you could cancel your cast and switch spells by arming weapon. im not sure if it was the same during all the era but it was a tactic in duels.

Arcanus wrote:Minor issues:

7. Gate dispelling. When using the Dispel Field spell on a gate, both sides of the gate are dispelled. Only the side which was targeted should be dispelled.
yes i agree %100! people used to gate newbs to hyloth and dispell "thinking" the person was stuck. but in reality they probably instantly died and couldnt get back in. i think there may have been a small delay for going through item type gate. please change this. it is a major issue actually, example.

this makes it so you can prevent people from gating "to" and area if you know the spot. splitting forces and what not. chaos / order risk of gating was only on the starting side... if a blue dispelled and split the force at the begining of the gate it was a problem. NEVER was my force split by a dispell on the other side. otherwise you would need to hide all your marked spots because of blue griefers would sit there and dispell so only a single fighter made it through.... think about it.
Arcanus wrote: 8. [frozen] indicator. This currently manifests itself in the form of a separate string above a person when you use the “all names” macro. This may seem very nitpicky, but the reason I’m bringing it up is because this confuses Razor, which will then think the person’s name is “[frozen]”. You can see this in the Razor hit % indicators (it will say “[frozen]’s stats: [82%]”) and if you are in a party with them, their name will appear as “[frozen]” in the Razor auto-map. The correct way to display the “frozen” status is with a suffix of “(frozen)” on the same line that displays the character’s name.
probably right. can't remember.
Arcanus wrote:Evidence: http://s279.photobucket.com/albums/kk14 ... ctrum3.jpg
Arcanus wrote:9. Failing meditation at GM. I don't remember this happening. Anyone else?
ya you would fail at gm. mostly when your int was high and your mana really low. better chance to fail with 110 int than 100. or with 1 mana vrs 20 mana. i remember that and being pissed. i also remember medding while draining mana from mobs stuck on objects without it disrupting med. i think this was changed now so it works.
Arcanus wrote:10. Murderers. Reds have a "The Murderer..." title and cannot be in an Order or Chaos guild.
[/quote]

this is correct but i think with such low population in pvp its fine to leave this the way it is. don't want to decrease the pvp action :)
Last edited by malice-tg on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Flash Hardstar »

Jeese was going to comment but I think Malice hit it on the head...

Yes at gm meditation when you were really low on mana you'd occasionally fail, just like at Gm fencing I miss a ratmen 6 times LOL!

Yes, reds used to just have the murderer title, quite frankly I think that was actually pretty cool....

Spells such as debuffs and low rank spells always did disrupt your casting.. pure mage duels were great, you saw people kill people with magic arrow, harm and clumsy! :lol:

Yes, I noticed the horse stamina being seemingly infinite, but I actually like this... Back then everyone was arguably on 56k and with the lag there you didnt get too far running on a horse in a short amoutn of time.. with connections now and how fast people jet on their horses if they were back to having old stamina we'd run out quite fast.. I think this update is a technological one thats neccesary... personal preferance though.

EDIT: Also pertaining to equipping while casting.. I remember once I had started casting a spell being able to equip a hally for the hit while still casting and it not disrupting.. I'm pretty sure on this but will double check.
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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Avo »

I got a question, if horses have alot of stamina does it matter if the human riding the horse is at 0 stamina? Say a person is at 0 stamina, will the horse keep running or are they both tied together? If they are separate then it makes very little sence for macers. If you cant kill a persons stamina and bring them to a stop with your mace then its no different from a hally or bow.

One other thing, i see alot of changes going on for mages, but something should be done for warriors also. Our hit success chance sucks. Missing 4-6 times in a row at gm weapon skill really stinks considering mages can just cast lower level spells and hit consistently. Four misses in a row can = death for a warrior just for the simple fact bandages take like 14+ seconds to finish. I just think if you spend the time gming the skill you should hit waaaay more often then miss.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by crabjuice »

Very good post. I find #4 disrupts and #6 self-disrupts to be the most important because of the strong, beneficial impact they would have on PvP.

Unfortunately you are right though, people don't like change. Everyone like's being in there comfort and security zone, even if it's not for the best.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Derrick »

I'm positive gates dispelled both sides, I've looked but can find no evidence of any change in the gate behavior when dispelling in patch notes.

The Autounequip is taken from the pre-cast re-enable patch which is the only place we've found that well describes the behavior of targeting with an armed weapon:
http://update.uo.com/design_346.html: "After you cast a spell, it will "time out" after 30 seconds and can no longer target anything. During those 30 seconds, you can now equip a weapon, attack with it without ruining your stored spell. When you release the spell, you will automatically unwield your weapon. "

Swing timer application is being worked on currently
Item use should be denied when you have a target up, we'll get this fixed too ("You are too busy doing something else" message)

Disrupts, currently being beaten to death in another thread.
Self-Disrupts, also overbeaten to death.

I'll move the [frozen] indicator up so that it suffixes the name

"The Murderer" title is era accurate, we can certainly put that in with ease if desired.

The meditation failure at extremely low mana is an accurate formula, it works just like bandage healing. Difficulty based according the the amount of mana/health that is lacking.

It's very hard to address so many issues in one thread, I may have missed something here. I've jotted some of these items to be fixed right away, but the book is not closed on a couple of these issues yet.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Arcanus »

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read my thread and comment on some of the things I may be incorrect about.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by BloodyBandage »

You posted basically the exact same thing I posted only 20 minutes later after commenting on my thread (about weapon timers). Just makes things monotonous to read every thread. Good find on the other stuff however; #'s 3, 5, 8, and 10 look to be the only ones worth looking at for now. Hopefully more evidence of the debuff disrupts surface.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Raz »

I personally think the potion one is a fairly large concern, because back in the day you obviously wouldn't be able to use a pot without clicking it, etc., and now with Razor, chugging pots while holding a spell seems woefully out of whack with the intent of the shard.

As for Gate dispelling, I remember in UO:R that gates only dispelled one way. If there are no patch notes describing a change, perhaps it was always that way.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by malice-tg »

Derrick wrote: Item use should be denied when you have a target up, we'll get this fixed too ("You are too busy doing something else" message)
wait a minute.. it would not say that. what would happen is. you would use the item but it would make the cursor dissapear if it was up. with no warning or explanation.

an exception to the rule was that the open door macro would not cancel spell cursor. their may have been a few more expections.

using bandage, potion, opening backpack all made your spell cursor disappear.

i think this might explain how people are able to recall with unatural speed.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by malice-tg »

Avo wrote:I got a question, if horses have alot of stamina does it matter if the human riding the horse is at 0 stamina? Say a person is at 0 stamina, will the horse keep running or are they both tied together? If they are separate then it makes very little sence for macers. If you cant kill a persons stamina and bring them to a stop with your mace then its no different from a hally or bow.
it was two sepperate stamina systems working at the same time.

- horse stamina could run out while you had full stam. you could hop off the horse and run.

- if your personal stamina droped to zero you couldnt move even if the horse was freshly tamed and full stamina.

if you lost both horse and personal at same time running away from a macer for example, you were really screwed :)

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by bOmb »

Self disrupts werent part of era. Bugs were exploited in t2a when you could cast while dragging items.

Im sure we posted patch notes on the forum somewhere. I dont like them but can deal with them.

Disrupts: My only problem here is that your screenies are from uo:r. Not really any more convincing than the

vids of Tournament of Champions platy posted. UO:R pvp was totally different after a couple months when

everyone realized it was Cure they needed to disrupt, not gheal. Again either way Ill play here. But I really

dont believe both were part of pvp system at same time.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by Arcanus »

I disagree about self disrupts. One of my keen memories from the era when learning how to play a tank mage was getting a feel for casting times so I could equip a weapon the very moment the spell was up. Disrupting myself by equipping too early happened a lot. It striked me as incredibly odd when I came on this server and saw that equipping a weapon was blocked when casting a spell.

There is not a single doubt in my mind, after all the PvPing and dueling I did back in the era, that you manually had to unequip before targeting a spell. I particularly remember missing an e-bolt killshot in a duel because my halberd failed to unequip. The placement of my arming/disarming and last target hotkeys (I used UOE) was a conscious decision based on the ability to effectively perform these maneuvers (arm, disarm, and last target).

I feel that the no self-disrupts and auto-unequipping functionality we see here today are results of OSI's toying with the mechanics after they neutered precasting and instahit.

Please elaborate on the bugs you are talking about. I would like to see the morsels of information regarding this functionality.

Regarding the screenshots, the only UO:R one is the one showing weaken spam. Unfortunately, while I have quite a lot of screenshots, they are nearly all cropped/formatted death shots which were taken manually. I usually didn't take screenshots when I was in the process of actually fighting. The vast majority of them were useless for my purposes here.

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Re: T2A Accuracy Discrepancies (with a focus on PvP)

Post by alatar »

malice-tg wrote:
Derrick wrote: Item use should be denied when you have a target up, we'll get this fixed too ("You are too busy doing something else" message)
wait a minute.. it would not say that. what would happen is. you would use the item but it would make the cursor dissapear if it was up. with no warning or explanation.

an exception to the rule was that the open door macro would not cancel spell cursor. their may have been a few more expections.

using bandage, potion, opening backpack all made your spell cursor disappear.

i think this might explain how people are able to recall with unatural speed.
this is exactly how it worked
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