Blade spirits are really weak

[Generic Player]

I didn't see a thread about this, but I also can't believe nobody has mentioned it before. Blade spirits were badass, they would easily kill almost any monster that didn't have magery to dispel it. Ogre lords were one of the few things that could actually kill a blade spirit. Here it takes 6 or 7 blade spirits to kill a mummy or a stone gargoyle. They take way too much damage, and deal way too little damage.

[Mikel123]

I found an old post stating Balrons in 1999 would be killed by 1 to 2 EV's or 7 or 8 BS's. Now, if you're having to put that many on them, then clearly the poison is doing a lot of the damage.

Figure out how many BS' it takes to kill a Balron and we can compare it. I agree it *seems* weird that it takes that many to take down a mummy or stone gargoyle, but we don't have any concrete proof of what it used to take.

[Generic Player]

There's lots of stuff that we'll never find *proof* of, but are things that were common knowledge. Blade spirit cheesing was really common, and very few things could actually kill one. A cyclopean warrior for example would easily die to a blade spirit in a couple minutes, here a cyclops will kill 6 blade spirits and still need a fireball to finish him off. While we may not be able to find the exact stats, we can certainly try to get something remotely close to accurate.

[Mikel123]

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... d578f16306
Dec, 1999: two blade spirits can kill an Ogre Lord, they last 15 seconds against a balron, dread spiders either dispel them or die

[Mikel123]

You're new here, and like every new player here, myself included when I was new... we all think we "know" things. Problem is, it was 10 years ago, most of us played through some of UOR and memories bleed across eras, etc.

Look at all the threads on the forums here where people "knew" things to be true and then we found indisputable proof (screenshots, for example) of them not being true. Or very very very reliable sources (such as the convergence of Stratics data, patch notes, and demo code).

There are plenty of sources you can find to back up your claims, if:
(a) you are correct
(b) you put in the effort to find them

[Generic Player]

Not to be a dick, but have you actually tried blade spiriting anything? What makes you think the current behaviour is anywhere remotely close to accurate? Are the current blade spirit stats based on anything, or is it just the RunUO defaults? I'm sure I'm not the only person who ever casted blade spirit, and my memories won't be from UOR period since UOR made me quit. This shouldn't be some contentious issue, just go blade spirit a cyclops and notice how the blade spirit loses badly. And how the next 4 will also lose badly and the cyclops will still be alive. Hell cats shouldn't have loot either, but you're not going to find a video of someone opening up a hellcat corpse for "proof" of the fact.

[nightshark]

Not to be a dick, but have you actually tried blade spiriting anything? What makes you think the current behaviour is anywhere remotely close to accurate? Are the current blade spirit stats based on anything, or is it just the RunUO defaults? I'm sure I'm not the only person who ever casted blade spirit, and my memories won't be from UOR period since UOR made me quit. This shouldn't be some contentious issue, just go blade spirit a cyclops and notice how the blade spirit loses badly. And how the next 4 will also lose badly and the cyclops will still be alive. Hell cats shouldn't have loot either, but you're not going to find a video of someone opening up a hellcat corpse for "proof" of the fact.

I used to use bladespirits to kill dragons/drakes in wind during T2A. There was 1 dragon and 2 drake spawn, I seem to recall it taking 4 or 5 to clear out the room.

[Mikel123]

Not to be a dick, but have you actually tried blade spiriting anything? What makes you think the current behaviour is anywhere remotely close to accurate? Are the current blade spirit stats based on anything, or is it just the RunUO defaults? I'm sure I'm not the only person who ever casted blade spirit, and my memories won't be from UOR period since UOR made me quit. This shouldn't be some contentious issue, just go blade spirit a cyclops and notice how the blade spirit loses badly. And how the next 4 will also lose badly and the cyclops will still be alive. Hell cats shouldn't have loot either, but you're not going to find a video of someone opening up a hellcat corpse for "proof" of the fact.

Yes, I have.

Never said it was. In fact, on the last thread about this stuff, like three days ago, I argued that their behavior definitely isn't accurate, according to my recollection.

They have been updated a number of times by Derrick, so they are definitely not RunUO defaults. You'd know this if you've been here for a while, searched the forum archives, or put any measure of thought or effort into corroborating your memory with other evidence.

There seems to be a trend lately of new players showing up and their first dozen posts on the board are them whining about how all this stuff here is not to their recollection, and clearly that means it needs to be changed. As if there weren't literally THOUSANDS of people who have put their time into talking about this shard over the last couple years to try to craft it as accurately as possible. So while you might be correct, or you might not, it would show a little common friggin decency if you brought a little more to the table than "OMGWTF blade spirts suxx, this shouldn't be some contentious issue". There are far more constructive and effective ways to convince people of your correctness.

[Generic Player]

I see. So if I just hop in my dolorean and go back in time a couple years and start playing then, I'll be allowed to post? "HURR u r new stfu" is not a constructive post, and all it adds is arguing like this. If you don't have anything to add, then you aren't obligated to reply.

My first post said I searched and didn't find anything. All the changes I saw were about their targetting AI, not their offensive and defensive strength. If you weren't in such a rush to jump all over people for being too new to post you might have caught that. And why would I default to "try to find proof for something so incredibly common and obvious that 99% of players can easily confirm it"? It seems to make sense to simply mention it and see what other people have to say. Of course, I was assuming people would post useful constructive posts instead of telling me to shut up because I am too new.

Now, since you already posted a link confirming what I am saying, so why are you so desperate to be mad at me for daring to post a glaringly obvious bug? Is there actually a controversy here, or do you just want something to argue about?

[Mikel123]

Look... I told you there is concrete writing out there from 1999 of it taking 7-8 BS to kill a balron in our era. I can find it if needed. I suggested you figure out how many it takes to kill a balron, so we can compare apples to apples (instead of balrons to stone gargoyles), and you started acting like a petulant child.

[Generic Player]

Mike, again if you have nothing to add just don't post. You aren't making the world a better place with useless flaming, so quit the "I am saving secondage by being an obnoxious prick" routine. You have posted a single useful post (did you leave your computer unattended and some random helpful stranger posted as you?), and a bunch of useless crap. If you aren't interested, then simply stop posting and leave the thread to people who do care. There is no such thing as "concrete writing", it's all hearsay. And how many BS it takes to kill an ogre lord or ophidian is just as relevant as how many it takes to kill a balron, and you yourself posted people talking about those in 99.

Further information for reference: just tried an ophidian avenger, took 17 blade spirits to kill him, he killed 16 and the last one finished him off at nearly full health. Like Mike's link points out, an avenger could only kill 1 blade spirit, not 16. I think the blade spirits damage per hit might be about right, and it is just attacking too slow. The bigger issue is their defense, an imp can kill a blade spirit here if he gets lucky with his spell choices, they either have way too few HP or take way too much damage, but I'm not sure if there's a way to tell which is the case.

Also, blade spirits should leave a corpse when killed, not vanish. I haven't been able to dig up a screenshot of a blade spirit corpse, but I'll keep looking.

[nightshark]

Also, blade spirits should leave a corpse when killed, not vanish. I haven't been able to dig up a screenshot of a blade spirit corpse, but I'll keep looking.

wow, yeah, i actually remember that.

and lol @ ophidian avenger killing 16 blade spirits

[Kaivan]

Having done some research on the subject, I think that the solution to the issue surrounding blade spirits is somewhat more clear.

First, looking at the discussions in the newsgroup postings regarding blade spirits, it is clear that blade spirits should be able to tough out a fight with most creatures in the game (using Mikel's newsgroup search you can find a few discussions on the subject).

In an effort to track down this issue, I took a look at the archived stratics hunters guide for blade spirits in order to determine the stats recorded for them. The February 10, 2003 archive of the blade spirit page shows that blade spirits have the following stats:

Hits: 1200
Str: 150
Dex: 150
Int: 100

By comparison, the demo template for blade spirits shows these stats:

Hits: 200
Str: 75
Dex: 75
Int: 100

Given the rather disparate numbers and the resulting functional discrepancy, it is likely that the stats archived in 2003 are much closer to the correct stats, if not the correct stats themselves.

Also, it is confirmed in the demo that blade spirits do indeed leave a corpse. The corpse is the same as one of the frames of their animation.

Finally, I will need to check with Derrick regarding blade spirit AI to see exactly what is currently in use. If we are using an exact copy of the demo AI, then it is certain that they aren't quite as aggressive as they should be. The reason for this is a 11/23/98 patch note that states:

Energy vortices and blade spirits will also be more aggressive.

Given this patch note, I will find out from Derrick whether any changes have been made to the awareness range or speed of acquiring targets for blade spirits. If none have been made, such a change is warranted in order to attempt to best approximate the above patch note (but not to give blade spirits UOR style AI).

P.S. A small reminder: We are all in the same boat with each other. Courtesy towards one another goes a long way to maintaining a good community relationship and ensures that we work towards a common goal in a respectful manner.

[Derrick]

We are indeed using the stats from June 1998, the stats are as cited. The Bladespirits AI including damages is from OSI, with the aggressiveness and peculiar targeting algorithm of era having been patched up recently.

I think in light of this information that EV's deserve a similar review.

I'll get the corpses fixed right away.

Thanks for the investigation

[Generic Player]

Nice find Kaivan. If current blade spirits are 200 HP, then the ophidian went through 3200HP of blade spirits, which still seems high if UO blade spirits were 1200. But maybe the extra dex and str will let the blade spirit kill fast enough to cut down how much damage it takes and make it work out right? On a somewhat related note, secondage is using the "monsters take double damage" system from T2A right? Just want to be sure damage estimates are accurate and not being skewed by things taking half as much damage as expected.