Gold Sink: Guild Reward Token Items

[chumbucket]

The idea here is essentially the same idea I had for the cA town add-on request. I think it would be a good idea and that it should be widely available. Here it is in full.

1. Established guilds and/or very large guilds can request that special items be available to the guild for a cost of, say, 500k gold each. Only the guildmaster could purchase these items.

2. The items would be normal, non-armor wearable--jewelery and clothing--which are not specially colored and do not merely, from looking at a player, stand out in any way. (Perhaps clothing could be made, for an extra fee, in one of the currently available special dye tub colors?)

3. They would, however, have a custom name selected by the guildmaster and approved by staff. Items on this name would from that point on only be available to that guild.

4. Once approved and paid for, each purchased item would be placed in the backpack of the player specified by the guildmaster. These items could not be sold, traded, stolen, looted or even placed on the ground. They could only be in two places: the person's backpack or worn by the player.

5. The benefits of this system are many. Gold would be taken out of the economy and guilds would be given a tool to motivate their members, yet the direct impact on both gameplay and the general atmosphere of the game would be minimal.

6. I seriously doubt this alone would be enough to remove an ideal amount of gold from the economy. I doubt any one gold sink could do that. This would just be one system that could to some degree or other improve the economy while providing other benefits and creating few drawbacks.

7. A slightly different approach: Perhaps make the items slightly cheaper but create a monthly fee to guilds to maintain the right to possess and purchase these items. That might in the long run draw more gold out of the economy, but might require more work on the part of staff to keep going.

[Biohazard]

The idea here is essentially the same idea I had for the cA town add-on request. I think it would be a good idea and that it should be widely available. Here it is in full.

1. Established.....

This sounds pretty cool.. not that i would partake in it most likely.. you could always increase the amount of gold if you want to take even more money out of the picture.

[Corbin]

We had talked about possible gold sinks before, but I think this might be going a little off the board. I feel that making special named items takes away from the possibilities of rewards for larger events in the future.

Personally, with gold sinks, I'd rather go the route we were talking about before and introducing a shop that would allow people to purchase items that were in T2A, but unobtainable such as full book shelves. If we're talking about a gold sink, you will have much more success with something like that because people will want the items and they would be lootable if not locked down, which keeps to the T2A tradition.

[Mikel123]

We had talked about possible gold sinks before, but I think this might be going a little off the board. I feel that making special named items takes away from the possibilities of rewards for larger events in the future.

Personally, with gold sinks, I'd rather go the route we were talking about before and introducing a shop that would allow people to purchase items that were in T2A, but unobtainable such as full book shelves. If we're talking about a gold sink, you will have much more success with something like that because people will want the items and they would be lootable if not locked down, which keeps to the T2A tradition.

If they're lootable, they're not a gold sink.

If I spend a million gold on a rare, and I can turn around and sell it for a million gold, we haven't taken any gold out of the system. I just traded 1,000,000 individual gold pieces for a 1-million dollar bill (bookshelf).

Gold sinks have to be:
1) ephemeral
or
2) non-transferable, and
2) have no benefit that allows someone to earn gold faster

[Corbin]

If they're lootable, they're not a gold sink.

If I spend a million gold on a rare, and I can turn around and sell it for a million gold, we haven't taken any gold out of the system. I just traded 1,000,000 individual gold pieces for a 1-million dollar bill (bookshelf).

Gold sinks have to be:
1) ephemeral
or
2) non-transferable, and
2) have no benefit that allows someone to earn gold faster

It's a risk, just like everything else in UO. There is no reason it shouldn't be lootable regardless of cost. You should also be able to sell them at will if you want. I can't see how you would make any gold from doing so seeing as no one would buy at an inflated cost if they can get from the vendor themselves.

As far as pricing, it should be a sink, yet affordable for not just the super rich. It also enables them to buy more items for better deco possibilities. You sell more when you get a better value, that is pretty typical economics. If you can get 5 items for 1mil, you'll be more likely to spend another mil sooner. They do the same thing to you at WalMart.

[Mikel123]

Corbin, you're missing the point completely.

If it is lootable, or tradeable, or sellable, it is not a gold sink! Re-read my post. It's just changing the form or appearance of the money. It will still have value and it can still be turned back into gold - maybe not as much, in which case some gold is "sunk", but maybe more gold too, in which case the problem is actually being made worse.

[BlackFoot]

A gold sink simply removes gold from the system. When you buy regs, that is a gold sink.

Example

You buy a fancy item from a special npc for 1000000 gold.
taht much gold is gone from the system.

If that item than began spawning hundreds of them everywhere, gold is not being produced.

[son]

NEA

[Rammar]

If it is lootable, or tradeable, or sellable, it is not a gold sink! Re-read my post. It's just changing the form or appearance of the money. It will still have value and it can still be turned back into gold - maybe not as much, in which case some gold is "sunk", but maybe more gold too, in which case the problem is actually being made worse.

Glad at least one other person seems to get it.

Gold is currency. Replacing it with something worth the same (or more) in gold through trade is not removing wealth -- which is the true purpose of a sink.

[Corbin]

A gold sink simply removes gold from the system. When you buy regs, that is a gold sink.

^This

Think of it as driving a car off the lot. As soon as an item like this is bought, it loses value simply because anyone can buy it for the same price and it will be a much more secure trade. So whether or not it's sold doesn't matter because there is some gold removed from the game. Not to mention people who have the gold to buy these kinds of items are less likely to sell them.

[Mikel123]

Corbin, that would be a better analogy if the car GAINED value, because that's what happens with rares right now.

Blackfoot wants to reduce the total number of gold pieces on the shard. I'm not sure what this would accomplish. I push for a "gold sink" that reduces the wealth of the established players. THAT is what I think is important, if we have to do something like this, although even then I don't think it's a very big deal at all.

[Rammar]

A gold sink simply removes gold from the system. When you buy regs, that is a gold sink.

^This

Think of it as driving a car off the lot. As soon as an item like this is bought, it loses value simply because anyone can buy it for the same price and it will be a much more secure trade. So whether or not it's sold doesn't matter because there is some gold removed from the game.

Uhh, what?

First: New cars lose so much value not because it wouldn't be secure getting a used one (often the very same dealer/warranty), but because they appeal to two different markets. Once a car is used (however slightly) it cannot be sold as new and then has to compete with a much larger quantity of similar used models.

Second: Gold is a currency, nothing more. It's irrelevant if it is removed or not. My regs/rares would be worth the same whether there was any gold whatsoever (though obviously in trade or using another currency).

Third: Reagents typically increase in value once they are purchased. Providing the labor (minimal it may be) to purchase them in quantity adds this additional value. There are dozens of player vendors that sell regs profitably at a decent markup which should make this obvious.

The same would not be true with vendor-bought ingots however, since they are obtainable more cheaply through players even in bulk. They actually sink the difference between the two.

Not to mention people who have the gold to buy these kinds of items are less likely to sell them.

Which only serves to further increase their value when they ultimately do sell.

[Corbin]

Uhh, what?

First: New cars lose so much value not because it wouldn't be secure getting a used one (often the very same dealer/warranty), but because they appeal to two different markets. Once a car is used (however slightly) it cannot be sold as new and then has to compete with a much larger quantity of similar used models.

You're looking too deep into the analogy. I'm not talking about the reasoning behind why a car loses value, simply that it does in fact lose value.

Second: Gold is a currency, nothing more. It's irrelevant if it is removed or not. My regs/rares would be worth the same whether there was any gold whatsoever (though obviously in trade or using another currency).

It is, but it's also the only currency that vendors will take apart from the house deeds that we use as currency for larger trades. The problem lies with inflation, and the production shards are a great example of that. While reg costs remain the same, people suddenly have millions and the costs of things like ingots skyrocket because gold becomes practically worthless. On production shards when I left, ingots hovered around 12gp each, though you could still find them occasionally for 9 or 10. Regardless that you can get them cheaper at npc vendors, you couldn't get them in bulk.

Third: Reagents typically increase in value once they are purchased. Providing the labor (minimal it may be) to purchase them in quantity adds this additional value. There are dozens of player vendors that sell regs profitably at a decent markup which should make this obvious.

From what I've seen, mandrake is the only one that goes up (unless this was recently changed), and it only goes up to 4. And this is only if a portion is bought. If someone buys out the whole stock, it resets back to 3 when it restocks.

The same would not be true with vendor-bought ingots however, since they are obtainable more cheaply through players even in bulk. They actually sink the difference between the two.

Except no one buys from vendors unless they need only a few because vendors don't carry much.

Which only serves to further increase their value when they ultimately do sell.

Why would it increase their value? Anyone would be able to go to the vendor and buy their own for the same price.

[Mikel123]

The problem lies with inflation

Inflation is caused by the total wealth of the shard, not the total number of gold pieces.

We'll never "sink" enough gold to make it difficult for people to obtain even a castle deed. So, the goal of trying to reduce the number of gold pieces is irrelevant.

Again... if you're concerned with the price of ingots, you're not concerned with the inflation of gp's, but rather the wealth as a whole. Whether I buy ingots for 7gp each, or 2gp and 1 black pearl each, or 2.33 bandages each, I'm ambivalent. I can afford to outbid the guy paying 6 gp each because I'm wealthy (in gold, items, houses, etc.)... not because I simply have more gold pieces. Because everything is so very liquid on this shard; it's pretty easy to trade your non-gold items for gold, and vice-versa, at almost a moment's notice.

[BlackFoot]

Blackfoot wants to reduce the total number of gold pieces on the shard. I'm not sure what this would accomplish. I push for a "gold sink" that reduces the wealth of the established players. THAT is what I think is important, if we have to do something like this, although even then I don't think it's a very big deal at all.

this may come off as sarcastic but its not my intention
just hand out thousands of unique items/hued masks/christmas,holiday items/magic weapons through events
make them spawn on the ground, increase the spawning rares to a hundred a day

you have instantly and effectively created a massive value sink and have removed no gold from the system

You need to ask what inflation is in this economy in order to curb it.
No matter how you slice it value of items is compared to the amount of gold in the system.

I am considered wealthy, but I am flat broke. I have to farm for 10 minutes every time i need to buy regs.
I will never sell or trade any of my items, they are not currency to me.. so am i wealthy or broke?