Events...Accuracy vs. Policy

[benny-]

Inspired by the thread on guild and party chat....and after 13 pages of debate and cries of "start another thread!"...I thought I would do just that.

While I realize this topic has gone back an forth for some time, the event system here is something that a considerable portion of the playerbase is still unhappy with and is something that has remained the same for some time.

To start, many on the opposing side, those that defend the current event system, claim that events exist outside the realm of accuracy. The idea being that this is a policy issue and that UOSA serves to emulate mechanics only. Thus events here cannot be argued against in the name of accuracy.

This I disagree with...

First off, I have never seen the shard officially claim that they aim to emulate game mechanics only. I feel that is sheer opinion to state the goal of UOSA is to deal with only mechanical issues and not try to emulate the era as a whole.

Furthermore, on the very front page of the website it is noted that events are currently an exception to the accuracy of the server. Suggesting that this is seen as an inaccuracy....

We will stay as accurate to the Pre-UO:R/T2A era as we can. The biggest exception to this is that there are many custom events both regularly scheduled, and staff run.

But let's bite and go along with the concept that events existed differently from one shard to another thus they cannot truly be replicated, thus the issue is that of a policy decision and not relevant in regards to accuracy.... (mouthful)

The problem that so many of us have with the event system is not how they are handled (in fact, I don't think anyone is complaining about the staff-run events here), but instead that the events here are a part of a system, a mechanic of the server to hold these multiple times a day, everyday, at scheduled intervals, a system that auto-generates these....from global messages to gates automatically opening to take players to Trammel in order to participate in automated games, separate from the rest of the playerbase.

To me, it is quite clear that the event system is in fact a mechanic of this server and thus should be debated as such. And while I disagree with his stance on them, even Derrick has stated a similar concept of the events...

For now, I'd like to say that yes, the events are a mechanic of the shard and yes, there was not an equivalent on OSI in 1999; however, they didn't have the capability of doing anything nearly as complex as these events during that time. I'd also like to add that I really did enjoy developing the events and actually have a few more in queue that I've been meaning to get out there, but completely lack any time to work on them.

Discuss.

[Faust]

Straight from the other thread about the topic...

When will any of you realize that this server ONLY replicates game mechanics?

The events on production shards were not universal from one shard to the next making it impossible to replicate in the first place. Game mechanics and the code(what we are replicating) that made them were universal from one shard to the next.

You can only replicate a UNIVERSAL system that took place on ALL the different servers. You can replicate every event that happened on each production shard but it still wouldn't be a replica in reality since one event didn't happen on the other shard. There is no possible way to replicate the events that happened on production shards, it's that simple.

If you want to go back to the same time period to have the same experiences socially, physically, and mentally on whatever shard you played than I would highly suggest that you build a time machine.

Until that day happens you must understand that replicating events is impossible one way or the other making this subject ridiculous to argue to begin with.

- If you replicate the events on each OSI production shard it's not accurate.
- If you make up your own events on this shard it's not accurate.
- If you don't replicate any events.. guess what... it's still not accurate.

No matter what way you look at this ITS STILL NOT ACCURATE. The only way it would be accurate in regard to events is if you made this UO Second Age : <insert OSI production shard name here> and this is a fact.

The events are a policy decision, not era accuracy.

Get it straight.

Derrick has stated many times that we are only replicating the game mechanics.

Our utmost goal is mechanical accuracy to the era, and we continue to strive to meet that.

If you honestly believe you can replicate the era as a whole you're completely living in a dream world benny.

[benny-]

Did you read my post before quoting yourself?

There is no official stance that mechanics are the only aim of the server. Instead, "accepting the era as a whole" implies quite the opposite.

No one is trying to replicate an individual's personal experience. The idea that to to emulate the manner and fashion of events to where they have any similarity at all to those of the era is somehow trying to do the impossible and recreate one's own experience is an extreme stretch.

Furthermore there is and has been a system, a mechanic here on UOSA to auto generate events, thus it is a mechanic of this server, thus it can be debated as a mechanics issue.

Read.

[Faust]

The front page was also written almost two years ago before a cutoff date even existed and it was politically correct to mix/match systems that contradicted themselves.

A good example, UOR healing with precasting even though a system in place like this never actually existed in the t2a era.

Furthermore there is and has been a system, a mechanic here on UOSA to auto generate events, thus it is a mechanic of this server, thus it can be debated as a mechanics issue.

We are replicating OSI shard mechanics... those same mechanics on those shards will reflect the same features here. However, events were NOT mechanical in nature on OSI shards. Those events were DIFFERENT on every single production shard. How can you replicate something in the name of era accuracy that isn't replicable to begin with in the first place?

- If you replicate the events on each OSI production shard it's not accurate.
- If you make up your own events on this shard it's not accurate.
- If you don't replicate any events.. guess what... it's still not accurate.

No matter which choice you make in this list here based on events... it will not be accurate.

[benny-]

I still disagree with the notion that UOSA's only priority is to emulate game mechanics. To try to claim that the entire mainpage has been outdated for years and doesn't really describe the goal of the server, that concepts like "accepting the era as a whole" are any other notion of trying to replicate the era are false, yet you Faust know the true goal of the server, is again, another far stretch....

No one is trying to replicate the exact events of one particular production server or another. In fact (as far as I know) many of this server's staff-run events were completely original and were very well received. No one is arguing that the event involving Shal'Etar wasn't a part of the era.

But to say that because on Atlantic there may have been an orc invasion whereas Chesapeake had a story about a troll, thus we can have Bagball, CTF, Tournaments and more held multiple times a day through a system to auto generate these at scheduled intervals is (again) a complete stretch.

The events clearly differed a bit from server to server...staff run events here held in a similar fashion are not the debate, but clearly a system in place to hold instances as we have here has nothing to do with the era.

[Faust]

Will issue the same response that I have in the past about this...

If you have a problem with the policy handling or decisions for the nature of the events.. take it up with the staff. Please just don't base your arguments off era accuracy because it's not valid reason at all since it's not a process that can be replicated in the first place. By all means if an event isn't your cup of tea and you think it goes against the 'theme' of Ultima Online or even the era itself.. be a chatterbox for all I care.

Personally, the events don't really interest me here besides a tourney here and there. I think the events should lose their 'instance' status and be merged into the world even if this means stripping certain features or an event altogether.

Please just remember that you can only replicate characteristics in an instance of an object that are the same for all objects when it comes to era accuracy... Otherwise it will just be inaccurate no matter what way you look at it. There is no real way to replicate every single server that OSI had down to the smallest minute detail since not every single detail was the same. Doing so would just be inaccurate too.

[BlackFoot]

When it comes to replicating the t2a era as a whole:

social dynamics and economy - how is there a possible way to replicate how it was during the era while keeping the core mechanics accurate (weapon drop rates, player knowledge, connection speeds, 3rd party aps, paying to play etc etc the list goes on).

You could pick one shard and try to copy that one exactly, with admin decisions, seers, guild towns, etc. but I dont think that is a possibility.

Trying to replicate admins policy decisions, levels of tolerance to rules etc (afk macroing example) you would need to pick one shard in particular again.

Having staff on constantly vigilante (paid) to check for rule breakers, jail macroers and exploiters etc isnt a possibilty.

You could attempt to automate these policies.. but in doing so would directly conflict with the mechanics or the era (questionairs popping up, if you dont answer it warps you to jail for being afk, forcing people to connect using UOAssist or Client only) etc
Making policies regarding these parts of the game that would not be enforced in any way arent really policies at all.

It would seem the mechanics are literally the only thing you could accurately replicate. Trying to manipulate the social and economic aspects of the server into being era accurate would be an impossible job.

One interesting example is Atlantics Seer run pvp tournament.

Facts about it:
It was grief proof, run by seers in a custom arena. This took place during the t2a era.

Question:
If these seers had the capability to have a sign up stone, players automatically warped into the arena, rules enforced through the system, and a victor announced do you think they would? Or do you think they would have manually done it, pulled players, build the elimination ladder, snoop backpacks, ensure rules were followed?

If this system was in place for seers to use at their discretion during the era do you think they would have used it at all?

----
As far as the automated system schedule being a mechanic of the server because it is automated, all that would need to be done was have a gm manually open an event gate at each time and its not a mechanic anymore.

[Karik Verlee]

Why are you so against the system? I have never taken part in a match. Ive watched a few and decided it wasnt for me. So if you hate it so much why not just avoid it?

[benny-]

As far as the automated system schedule being a mechanic of the server because it is automated, all that would need to be done was have a gm manually open an event gate at each time and its not a mechanic anymore.

I agree. As it is quite clear that this is an issue of having a mechanic on UOSA that was not a part of the era; having a system in place to automatically generate events is the issue here. You could counter with saying that the system is merely an attempt to ease the burden of the staff here. However...

You could attempt to automate these policies.. but in doing so would directly conflict with the mechanics or the era (questionairs popping up, if you dont answer it warps you to jail for being afk, forcing people to connect using UOAssist or Client only) etc

Why are you so against the system? I have never taken part in a match. Ive watched a few and decided it wasnt for me. So if you hate it so much why not just avoid it?

An understandable argument. It's been brought up before ("if you don't like it, don't participate!"). And as a personal record, myself and nearly all of my guild members do not....preferring to instead enjoy the actual gameplay of the shard...but that is irrelevant.

One....it is inaccurate to have a system in place to auto generate events. It is inaccurate to have Trammel. If staff wanted to hold an event every night, more power to them. But to have a mechanic in place to regularly hold these has nothing to do with the era.

Two (and I'll concede that this is a matter of policy here), it completely goes against the nature of T2A gameplay. One major aspect of the T2A era is that players were left to generate their own content. Whether you were struggling to get ahead by killing monsters, preying upon such hunters by playing a pk, or enjoying a quieter life of supplying others with crafted goods, a key concept was that you had the mechanics of the game and you did what you pleased with them.

To have events taking place in these instanced games, removing those involved from the rest of the playerbase does the exact opposite....it provides content in a secure location held in Trammel. It is a distraction that affects the gameplay of the server.

[Faust]

I agree. As it is quite clear that this is an issue of having a mechanic on UOSA that was not a part of the era; having a system in place to automatically generate events is the issue here. You could counter with saying that the system is merely an attempt to ease the burden of the staff here. However...

One....it is inaccurate to have a system in place to auto generate events.

Wrong, the undead trinsic invasion was automated meaning OSI actually had this ability making the argument towards automation mute.

Also, there is still a lot of momentum to get these events into the real world away from the current 'trammel' theme... So long as people keep this idea alive and interesting it will someday happen hopefully.

[Karik Verlee]

Upon rereading your post and the main page your points are completely invalid due to a quote you used from the main page.

We will stay as accurate to the Pre-UO:R/T2A era as we can. The biggest exception to this is that there are many custom events both regularly scheduled, and staff run.

Derrick & Staff have done an amazing job recreating the T2A era, and the BIGGEST exception are the many events... That's part of the mission statement for the shard.

So are you disagreeing with the mission statement of the shard?

[benny-]

Wrong, the undead trinsic invasion was automated meaning OSI actually had this ability making the argument towards automation mute.

Also, there is still a lot of momentum to get these events into the real world away from the current 'trammel' theme... So long as people keep this idea alive and interesting it will someday happen hopefully.

Really?

You're going to argue that an event was held once in the form of a story-altering quest that used some spawns and was thus "automated". Therefore UOSA can have a mechanic in place to regularly hold events multiple times a day, a mechanic that opens up a moongate and whisks you off to Trammel to play Capture the Flag and BagBall. And the two are the same? The mechanic used there and here are two very different things. You cannot say that because a mechanic existed once for this purpose therefore we can use any mechanic we want....afterall they are two very different mechanics.

But, again, I'll bite....

But wait, when did the Juo'nar invasion of Trinsic take place....Feb. 2000? Well beyond our cutoff date. Systems and mechanics to auto generate events are not accurate.



*edit to include quote*

[benny-]

So are you disagreeing with the mission statement of the shard?

Yes. That quote shows itself that the events here are an exception and are not accurate. As the goal here is to develop a server that is as accurate as possible, this exception should be removed. You can't in one breath say accuracy before all else but in the next say "Except for.."

[BlackFoot]

The server events have no bearing on players actually creating their own in game content. I create as much in game content for myself and other players on the server but I also attend the server events.

We create events that are already automated and still have lots of players. I dont see how the two are mutually exclusive.

[benny-]

I disagree.

I have seen numerous times guilds try to hold events of their own, only to find that there was an automated event taking place. I've seen groups of players trying to work around this scheduled system so as to not have to compete with something that they can't.

I've seen pk hunts ruined from a lack of available field pvp in game, only to find out there was an event in progress.

From the other side of things...

I've often benefited from being able to work some of the best spawns ingame simply by waiting for the next scheduled event to start...knowing that a good portion of pks will stop looking for targets while these are in progress.

Whether pvpers can't find action or pvmers can benefit from a moment of inactivity from the pks, it's obvious that these do in fact have an effect on the actual gameplay of the server.

You draw out 20 or so pvpers from actively crossing the map, looking for action, it will have an effect on the activity in the field.

Regular gameplay shouldn't take a backseat to an automated system. Players deciding to take initiative to generate activity and content shouldn't be forced to contend with automated games.

But really Blackfoot, your point is moot. No matter the level of effect, how much it hurts or harms should not be an argument to leave in an inaccurate system.