Second Age: An Entirely Different Game - A Dead Horse Kicked

[benny-]

I've been playing Second Age for well over a year now. While I have taken a few breaks in that time, I often get an itch to play old UO, remembering fondly the game that has always been quite the addiction of mine. I recently returned from such a break, excited as hell to get back into the T2A experience.

I looked over my 3 accounts, all containing some advanced chars, 4 of them completely finished; ready to play. They all seemed stale, somehow playing a finished character that I left off with months ago held no interest for me. I decided to try something different, a new build in hopes of creating some excitement in my gameplay. I first macro'd up all the skills that required fewer resources, farmed for a few nights, then began finishing the build, working resist, etc. I had an itch to just jump in and play the entire time, but I knew I could finish the character in but a fraction of the time by macroing. Even in my free time, when on the computer, I knew that I would get my gains much faster by simply letting the macros run, than by actively and regularly playing the game. The option of trying to compete in pvp with an unfinished character, seemed impractical...Id be at a huge disadvantage and would eventually have to return to the macroing if I wanted a playable character any time soon.

In a little over a week, I had a perfect 7x char. I had my other existing chars from before when I played. I had chars to do my resource gathering, chars to make my items (pots and such). Everything was finished, I was ready to participate, to go out and play the game now and be on par with the rest of the playerbase.

I played for the next few days participating in daily events, looking for field pvp in between. While I did find some in the dungeons, it was off and on at best. I started frequenting Brit GY where the action was more consistent and was content for the next couple of nights. The pvp became redundant. On occasion, the reds would dominate the area with a decent group, often the blues would have control, having 6-8 of them waiting for a lone red to jump on (or settling for a grey even, heh). It went back an forth like this and I started noticing a similarity between this server and a test server. The players here have the option to quickly max out their chars, with little real work required...once that was done, there was little else to do really but look for other pvpers, fight in a familiar area and kill time between events. The need to actively play the game was gone, there were no more goals, all the characters were finished, any items sought after could be easily attained with a character designed just for farming, there was no more challenge, no more goals. This is vastly different from the game I remembered being so excited about.

This here is where many would interject with cries of "this isn't '98...we're all older now, its a ten year old game..."

How depressing. =P

This idea that everyone who played T2A was 16-18, living at home with all the free time in the world is a gross misconception. In fact, out of the 10 UO players I knew irl, 6 were in their mid-twenties to early thirties, all with full time jobs, their own houses to take care of, some of them with families. From what I have seen, UO had a fairly diverse playerbase. As for the game being too old or outdated....well, you reading this is a testament to it's relative timelessness. The game, in it's design was unique and created wonderfully exciting gameplay. I highly doubt that other games have gotten that much better, or we are all too old to really enjoy UO anymore, heh.

I think, what is so different from here and actual T2A, are the inaccuracies that still exist. While the details...the scripts, mechanics, have all been worked out to be very close to the era, we still have a number of issues that have changed this game so much from the game it once was.

The rules, the very approach to the game has been changed from one of challenge and progression to one of accommodation....relaxed systems and rules that I think were made in order to attract players, to better contend in the freeshard community.

But this shard, like all of the other freeshards, has overlooked one of the most fundamental concepts in all rpgs, that through continual gameplay, your character advances. Be it unlocking a new ability or spell, being able to make a new item,being able to afford bigger and better luxuries, or simply all round having a tougher character, the idea is simple; the more you play, the better you get. This simple concept, one of character progression, advancement and simply having goals to look forward to, combined with the interaction (both positive and negative) of countless other players, was what made UO so exciting. Having nearly unattainable goals, always having a way to improve, combined with the fierce competition of other players, it was challenging as all hell and made you want to play and to play, always having something to work towards.

Back to the present day, amidst a sea of freeshards catering to pvpers and others who want to be able to simply "jump in and play", we look at char development as a nuisance to get out of the way...be it skill balls, power hours, or afk macroing, the staff of nearly all free shards try to attract to the greediness of players, telling them there's a simple, quick way to get to the top....but in the end, it allows players to beat the game in mere weeks, to have a finished char, a butt ton of items and a big ass house, all with little to no work required. The only cost? Reduced activity in the game world, a number of imbalances to pvp that occur with everyone having maxed out chars, a screwed up economy where everyone has their own crafters....a game nothing like what it once was.

I know that the topic of eliminating macroing and returning to active gameplay has been brought up time and time before, I have read every discussion Ive been able to find on it, seen the responses, but I have still yet to find one decent argument for why it is here on a shard that values accuracy before all else.

I think, when it comes down to it, those that are comfortable and happy with afk macroing here either never played the era...never truly experienced or understood it, or did and have, but have been playing freeshards for so long that they have grown accustomed to that sense of entitlement...feeling they should be able to play a max'd char with all the luxuries and shouldn't even have to play the game for any of it. This whole concept has taken what was a brilliant game design so vital for the gameplay that we all miss and love, and thrown it out. And then we wonder why so many of us have grown bored with the game, feel no excitement left and why this game is so starkly different from the game we remember.

Please, give me a valid argument for why macroing is fine, why it goes along with the accuracy that this community so strives for, Ive yet to hear one.


[/rant]

[Chad-]

every new player would feel cheated becuase everybody and their mothers have 10 gm chars already.

[benny-]

There are a number of ways that this could be dealt with in order to make things easier and more fair for those new to the shard, but thats really besides the point. T2A era UO was never about fairness...there were always better, more advanced, veteran characters out there. This was but another obstacle, something to compete against, a goal to work towards...having bigger and better players out there to contend with.

But back to the point, its a weak argument to say we should continue to encourage systems and methods that are entirely inaccurate and ultimately affect the over all game simply because its been done thus far. By that logic we should have never changed resist gains in town, as those who were around for that had a much easier time getting to gm resist than those who play now.

[Chad-]

There are a number of ways that this could be dealt with in order to make things easier and more fair for those new to the shard, but thats really besides the point. T2A era UO was never about fairness...there were always better, more advanced, veteran characters out there. This was but another obstacle, something to compete against, a goal to work towards...having bigger and better players out there to contend with.

But back to the point, its a weak argument to say we should continue to encourage systems and methods that are entirely inaccurate and ultimately affect the over all game simply because its been done thus far. By that logic we should have never changed resist gains in town, as those who were around for that had a much easier time getting to gm resist than those who play now.

Yes but that was a small percent of players that were given the chance to exploit these bugs on osi but when 95% of the population already gained that advantage theres not much you can do.you also gotta remember uo is a very old game not many people wanna put in large incriments of time into such an old game.Im just telling you why it wouldnt happen.

[dexter4321]

You are talking about Ultima Online as if it is some single play computer rpg. Just because you reach a point where all your chars are complete, you have tons of gold, have some fine real estate, and have many rares and cool items in your bank. That is not what Ultima Online is all about.

Ultima Online is a game that evolves and adapts, it is why I still choose to play it over the newer more popular mmo games. This is the closest you will ever get to the OSI second age that was 10+ years ago. Even though with razor and macroing all the skills and gold become a lot easier to attain, there are things you can never simply attain by macroing.

Once you reach this "wall" that your referring to, your either going to do one of three things.

A. Quit
B. Quit temporarily only to come back and do the same thing all over again.
C. Breakthrough this wall and find a way to exceed in the game.

Just when you think there is nothing left to do, the great thing about Ultima Online is that you can create something else to do. Just because you got all the skills maxed out and all the gold in the world doesn't mean the game is over or you somehow "beat" UO. And I am talking about Ultima Online in general now not just uosa, razor or no razor. The true players of Ultima Online stay for their own reasons because they created their own experience of the game.

Skills and stats and gold come with time. Razor simply cuts that time in half and allows you to play the game a whole lot quicker, and allows you to do many new things you couldn't do way back then. Also you have to remember that back then there were a lot of people that played, so there were always different levels that people were at. Hell you could run around with 80 swords and still find people to own with ease that said they were good.

This is simply, not OSI, and not 10+ years ago. UOSA is pretty much the old second age, but has adapted to compete with all the new mmo's that are out there. I can assure you that without razor UOSA would never of came to be and would not have nearly as many people as it does now. This is all about being t2a accurate, but something like a third party program has nothing to do with that. Of course you could say yeah it technically does bla bla bla but who really cares. If it wasn't for razor or any programs like that in the past UO free shards would have died out a long long time ago. You are simply living in the past and you need to see past your version of beating Ultima Online.

If you get to a point in Ultima Online where you feel there is nothing left to do, you need to take a step back and really figure out what you haven't done yet. Like I said your either going to quit eventually, or find something totally new to do.

But to be honest, in the end it always comes down to the PvP, the events, the thrill of the field, the business, the stealing, the guilds, the players, the idocs, the reputation, and the social interaction. You just take a look at the uosa veterans you have stayed here for awhile and you will find that they specialize in one of these things, if not many or all. The whole pvm gold race castle goal players usually end up leaving eventually. When you realize this then it comes back to what it was all about to begin with, the "Online" part of the Ultima. The reason for the macroing and razor is to cut the single player bullshit, and get straight to the online aspect of the game. The online aspects of Ultima Online are what defines the game to it's very core. And if you look at the game that way, it's pretty much impossible to reach some kind of "wall" like you say. I mean the game can still get old and you may leave for awhile, but if you truly play the game this way, you will most likely come back eventually.

What you are talking about is OSI, this is not OSI this is UOSA.

[Valdric Flagg]

My version of UO is different from yours and probably everyone else's. Thats the beauty of UO. Everyone plays the same game but its different for everyone. Back in the day I played maybe a week before I was introduced to UOassist. Where this was not as good as razor it helped the game immensely.

As far as allowing macroing. I macroed back in the day, as well as alot of other people. Not nearly as efficiently but it still happened. I remember a friend who would make complete accounts and sell them for $100. I think it took him 2-3 months to make a complete 5 character account.

I like the macroing here because I dont have the time that I used to. So I can set up a macro and gain some skill so when I do have time to go hunt Im not a complete noob and might survive just a hair longer.

Right, wrong or other thats my 2 cents, spend it how you please.

[caveman]

I play one charachter only. No resource gatherers, mules, etc. After playing so many mmorpg's I am completely disgusted with grinding, leveling, spec'ing, farming, macroing and botting. I don't care if people can create 7x at creation. I certainly don't play to "work" and would guess that many that do have serious OCD.

[dexter4321]

Yeah come to think of it people did macro back in the day, I didn't even know much about mmo's though all I did was run around with a sword. But I am sure many people did the old paper weight on a use last item last target hotkey or whatever.

[Duke Jones]

http://web.archive.org/web/199911290210 ... ploit.html

Timestamp: "19991129021021"

"Is it legal to use a program to help me macro out repetitive tasks while I am away from the game?

Although we realize that many players use 3rd party programs, such as macro programs, to aid in the growth of their characters, we want to point out that unattended macroing runs contrary to the gaming experience of Ultima Online and that the use of unauthorized 3rd party programs is a violation of the terms of service. Macroing can mean a number of different things, but it is the unattended macroing that we are most concerned with, not usage of the in-game macros. Unattended macroing means being away from your UO session while your character repeats a series of actions for any length of time. Any macro that repeats is potentially unattended. Some players use macroing programs to aid them in repetitive tasks within the game, and, although it may seem as if these programs are benevolent time savers, when used in an unattended or repeating manner, ***these programs actually create problems within the game.*** Many people who play UO are not willing to pay for these programs to assist in character development, nor do they feel comfortable playing in a world where such tools are available to others. They simply wish to play in the environment they feel Ultima Online should be. We tend to agree with those players.
Players found to be engaged in unattended macroing will be kicked from the game and a note will be placed on their account. Being kicked means that your connection to UO will be terminated. This is not a banning; it is simply that we are dropping your connection while you are not present in the game. Players who consistently violate the terms of service by using 3rd party programs to perform unattended macroing may have their account banned on a temporary or permanent basis. Players should only call a GM to report others performing unattended macroing when it is interfering with their gaming experience."

[BlackFoot]

Somone was able to do somthing easier before, now I have to do it a harder way! that isnt fair! So you cant change it.

This arguement above will never be a valid one in uo.
Absolutely no progress would ever be made towards getting the game where we want it.

If this arguement was ever taken seriously here are a few examples if what would still be happening

Smith vendors would still sell iron igs for 5 gp with the UOR crafting system menus <-- easy to gm crafting for vets
Put up a vendor, customize neon sandals, let vendor drop wee free sandals <--- unfair for new guys right?
Resist would still gain while in town, no risk/no heal regs/aids needed <--- advantage vets

These are a few examples of why the arguement should be dismissed.
90% of changes make it harder for new players.
Is that a valid reason to let things that are wrong to continue?

[benny-]

Some excellent replies so far....Im glad to see that there is interest in this discussion, no matter what your stance is.

Id like to respond to Josh's initial post (a good reply btw). I realize that the first portion of my post gives the stance of a single player rpg, as it is from the perspective of the individual player that I wrote. But that was intentional, as the gameplay on Secondage that is so vastly different from that of actual T2A results from the actions of the individual player. That is not at the fault of the player, as it is only logical that a player would follow the quickest route to a finished character. The point I was trying to get at was the damage done to the game by adding in such inaccurate features, how it takes all of the challenge and competition out of advancement, leaving the player to grow bored with what could have literally been years and years of active gameplay.

In past discussions on this very subject, many veteran players and even the staff here have referred to any change here would be "social engineering". Making the claim that those who wish to see the game restored to what it was are somehow trying to force others to play as they see fit. This is not the case. This isn't an argument for favoring one playstyle over another, its not a discussion on why people should play casually instead of powergaming. Powergaming was and always has been a large part of UO gameplay. However even those who powergamed during the era had to actively play to do so, thus adding activity and contributing to the overall game. What macroing does is give the player the option of eliminating any time or activity invested into the game, giving the players the option of finishing their character without ever interacting with another player.

It is no wonder we see more activity from idle players at the various banks and stables in the game and see so few players out in the dungeons, running the map and otherwise adding activity to the shard. Why good field pvp can be at times, so hard to find, why reds cant find targets away from brit gy.
Its no wonder why we see such a poor player economy. Ever notice its easier to find a vendor well stocked with vanqs and other magical items than it is to find one consistently stocked with crafted goods?

When every player has the option of making endless crafters simply by letting a macro run on another account, there is no more demand for such goods from the playerbase. That is not to say that players shouldn't have their own crafters, mules were a big part of gameplay in the era. But it was something you would have to work towards, sacrificing time away from your main in order to advance such a character. This idea that everyone should have crafters of every skill simply by letting another account run a macro completely changes the gameplay and wrecks the economy.

Look at the imbalances of pvp. Nearly every tank on here complains of how dexxers aren't killable, can survive any mana dump with ease. That is because when you take the mechanics of pvp detail by detail but completely disregard the difficulty behind skills you end up with pvp that doesn't work how it did in the era. Things like gm healing and magery were very difficult to get to and generally required consistent gameplay over a long length of time to achieve. But most notable, look at resist. GM resist during the era was a legendary thing, few mages had it, nearly no warriors had it. There was a reason it was the hardest pvp skill to cap, it gave the user a powerful advantage. Compared to the ease of eval, mages had a deadly advantage in pvp, allowing their dumps to be lethal to warriors. Now with every pvp char running about with perfect stats as if it were some test center, we often see 1 vs 1's go no where, either side able to recover and continue fighting.

If changes were made to eliminate these inaccurate features and restore gameplay to what it once was, we would soon begin to see more activity across the map...players going out and working for their skills, thus contributing to the game, adding challenge and increasing field fighting and returning a vital aspect back to the game: risk vs reward. We would see more demand for items in game, giving value back to crafters. Overall we would see challenge and competition restored to the game.

[Mikel123]

Its no wonder why we see such a poor player economy. Ever notice its easier to find a vendor well stocked with vanqs and other magical items than it is to find one consistently stocked with crafted goods.

The economy is fantastic.

You see vendors with vanqs because people on this shard are very sophisticated. We know how to farm efficiently. Has nothing to do with the availability of GM smiths and GM weapons, and everything to do with the fact that vanq weapons are more common here than on the production shards because we do more effective farming.

[Duke Jones]

...what benny- said.


Seriously, though. Thanks for posting this in such a well-formed, consistent, and on-target way. If there were more players like you, I could probably invest more time in this game and even open up my shop again.

[benny-]

The economy is fantastic.

You see vendors with vanqs because people on this shard are very sophisticated. We know how to farm efficiently. Has nothing to do with the availability of GM smiths and GM weapons, and everything to do with the fact that vanq weapons are more common here than on the production shards because we do more effective farming.

Which has nothing to do with players who can instantly get a gm bard, t-map hunter, or tamer? Obviously the production of them is a direct result of every player being able to make a perfect farmer in mere days.

[Mikel123]

You can GM a bard in days. Fine.

I dare you to try to GM a lockpicker in days. Or a Tamer. There's about 50 of each on this shard, which has been around for 2 years. That's not too many, in my eyes.

Some people play for 1 hour a day, and some people play for 12 hours a day. If you play for 12 hours a day, yeah you're going to GM some skills pretty quickly.