Insta Hit, Weapon Mechanics, and much more...

[Faust]

The known facts still remain...

- The unequip delay has been proven to be a VALID function in the OSI code.
- The only mention of this delay is in this stratics article provided here. http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1
- There has been definitive proof to show that you could skip a weapon delay, which coincides with many of the veterans memories here.

Please show me something that disprives the unequip delay to validate it's implementation other than when it said it was added in this stratics article...

PS
There is no source to support ANY delay other than THIS source, but the facts still remain that it DOES exist. When you show me a source that describes the implemenation of the unequip delay you won't ever have any substance on this argument.

[Kraarug]

The known facts still remain...

- The unequip delay has been proven to be a VALID function in the OSI code.
- The only mention of this delay is in this stratics article provided here. http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hallnews ... ocookies=1
- There has been definitive proof to show that you could skip a weapon delay, which coincides with many of the veterans memories here.

Please show me something that disprives the unequip delay to validate it's implementation other than when it said it was added in this stratics article...


PS
There is no source to support ANY delay other than THIS source, but the facts still remain that it DOES exist. When you show me a source that describes the implemenation of the unequip delay you won't ever have any substance on this argument.

Faust, I am not saying that there was not an unequip delay. I'm just asking to show proof it was set to flat 2 seconds instead of relying on the established attack speed calcuations.

EDITED: I mean, honestly, why wouldn't they tie it to calculated attack speed? Is there a technical limitation?

I'm also not saying that when you first equiped a hally or any weapon that you had to wait for the intial swing timer when 'insta-hit' was enacted.

I'm only saying that post 2.26.99 that there is no evidence that you were able to skip subsequent swing timers by disarming and rearming. The patch says it's fixed and Markee Dragon clearly states that such a move would not be worth it.

[Kraarug]

2 sec hally bug is redic. faust is just too hard headed to ever believe he is wrong. and has been since he got here. actually sux hes part of the research team, and scripting team. btw he sux at pvp too.

He's a good researcher and I don't know about coding but I'm assuming by his use of math that he's good there. He just won't budge when challenged.

About PvP, I don't know how he could not be proficent with knowlege of the timers and scripts. I would suspect that information really helps his macros and tactics.

I don't know Faust if I fought you in game or not. I don't know your character and I hardly every play Cortez the 7x GM Townie with resist. After all that work I found the mechanics for that character was off. Maybe the re-cast delays will change some of those issues.

[Faust]

The exploit involving the double hit is abused by manipulating the comat timer for weapons utilizing the equip delay... The equip delay was patched in '97 that specifically says...

"Equipping a weapon in combat will restart your weapon swing."

The equip delay was later altered to allow insta hit, and would only occur when your swing wasn't ready(aka have an active swing delay)...

Double Hit Exploit:
- Hit with hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving no unequip delay.
- You equip your katana setting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay.
- You equip your hally and your swing is ready. This means that you can swing just about every 1 second machine gunning hally hits.

Fix:
- Hit with a hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving an unequip delay of 2 seconds.
- You equip your katana resetting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay applying the unequip delay.
- You equip your hally after this and it RESETS, because you have a delay.

Double Hit Exploit fixed...

How hard can it be to understand something so simple...

Please don't ask me why they made the unequip delay 2 seconds. I have no clue why this was ever developed... The unequip mechanism worked exactly the same way as the equip mechanism involving the weapon timer conversion, however this was clearly stated to be 2 seconds on stratics. This falls in line with MANY people here that remembers that you could cast an ebolt to skip your previous hally delay.

This is clearly shown in the screen shot from wtfman.com that shows a hally, ebolt, hally, ebolt during 3 greater heals which has a time frame of 1.25x3 in seconds with a possible 0.75x2 for a recovery delay. That is an equivalent of 5.25 seconds in ALL. Please explain to me how two hally hits that has a 5 second delay occurred in a time frame of 5.25s? Please?

[Jaster]

This is clearly shown in the screen shot from wtfman.com that shows a hally, ebolt, hally, ebolt during 3 greater heals which has a time frame of 1.25x3 in seconds with a possible 0.75x2 for a recovery delay. That is an equivalent of 5.25 seconds in ALL. Please explain to me how two hally hits that has a 5 second delay occurred in a time frame of 5.25s? Please?

It doesn't "show" hally hits in that picture. It is only mentioned by Nighthawk. Like many pictures that come about when 1 player kills another, what happened can be stretched to show "pure dominance" instead of where in reality, a number of things could have happened.

What could cause a spell to be interrupted?

*Self Disrupt to fizzle yourself and recast before the ebolt disrupts you.
*Self Disrupt by equipping your weapon on accident
*a glitch by button mashing, which can occur on uosa currently where to many actions get backed up and fizzle you.
*maybe he cancelled his target and really didn't get disrupted? If he was using any kind of mouse wheel targeting, its possible to scroll in the wrong direction [target self vs target last] ... target last wouldn't show up in the journal because the player chugged a greater heal pot to full life.

these are just a couple possibilities

[Kraarug]

The exploit involving the double hit is abused by manipulating the comat timer for weapons utilizing the equip delay... The equip delay was patched in '97 that specifically says...

"Equipping a weapon in combat will restart your weapon swing."

The equip delay was later altered to allow insta hit, and would only occur when your swing wasn't ready(aka have an active swing delay)...

Double Hit Exploit:
- Hit with hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving no unequip delay.
- You equip your katana setting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay.
- You equip your hally and your swing is ready. This means that you can swing just about every 1 second machine gunning hally hits.

Fix:
- Hit with a hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving an unequip delay of 2 seconds. <<DEBATEABLE
- You equip your katana resetting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay applying the unequip delay.
- You equip your hally after this and it RESETS, because you have a delay.

Double Hit Exploit fixed...

How hard can it be to understand something so simple...

Please don't ask me why they made the unequip delay 2 seconds. I have no clue why this was ever developed... The unequip mechanism worked exactly the same way as the equip mechanism involving the weapon timer conversion, however this was clearly stated to be 2 seconds on stratics. This falls in line with MANY people here that remembers that you could cast an ebolt to skip your previous hally delay.

This is clearly shown in the screen shot from wtfman.com that shows a hally, ebolt, hally, ebolt during 3 greater heals which has a time frame of 1.25x3 in seconds with a possible 0.75x2 for a recovery delay. That is an equivalent of 5.25 seconds in ALL. Please explain to me how two hally hits that has a 5 second delay occurred in a time frame of 5.25s? Please?

The issue I have is with the flat 2 second timer. I simply do not think they did this Faust. Its totally off not a fix to the bug. It doesn't speak to the claim they fixed a bug with slower weapons. It would only be adding 500 ms to a 4.5 to 5 second problem.

There's nothing else to support this than one entry on a page full of other unimplemented 'fixes'. I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough considering all the time and opportunity there was to document this mechanic in the UO WebSpace.

As far as the journal entry you show from WTFman, without a time stamp all it proves is the order of casts and doesn't prove the amount of elsapsed time. If that elasped time was present then you'd have strong evidence.

[Kraarug]

Here's that post again, from the same website and after your Nighthawk story... <8.19.99

It outlines tactics which includes not using a Hally against a Warrior.

http://www.wtfman.com/oldjov/newbie/pvpmage.htm << 9.2.99

Here is a perfect opportunity to have documented a fast Hally swing but instead this guide suggests NOT using a Hally because of the long delay.

So... here's the score.

Faust:
1: 2.1.99 Page by Lord Hades which is the only mention of a possible 2 second unequip delay
2: 9.19.00 JOV Story wihtout a time stamp.

Cortez:
1: 2.26.99 Patch note that says slow moving weapons refeshing faster is fixed.
2: 2.26.99 Markee Dragon post that says arm/disarm aint gonna help you.
3: 9.2.00 JOV PvP Guide which states Hally swings are too slow for Dexxers.

Faust 2
Cortez 3

3>2 My reference is Newer too.

Cortez Wins

[Kraarug]

Same author as your only 2 second hally refresh source... No mention here of a fast Hally attack here...
http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/duels.shtml

And nothing here, by the same author, in any of his guides last updated 5.99.

http://uo.stratics.com/warfare/hadesstrat.shtml

[Senses]

That seems to be where all our info is coming from at this point. Really makes you wonder if T2A accuracy isn't just some pipe dream that can't ever really be achieved. I think its a noble cause, but its hard to believe that we can't replicate something that is not only just 11 years old, but still exists in a playable form. Is there no place out there to find the real answers at this point in time, or must we always be forced to dig through cryptic forgotten texts and pictures?

[Jiggo]

The exploit involving the double hit is abused by manipulating the comat timer for weapons utilizing the equip delay... The equip delay was patched in '97 that specifically says...

"Equipping a weapon in combat will restart your weapon swing."

The equip delay was later altered to allow insta hit, and would only occur when your swing wasn't ready(aka have an active swing delay)...

Double Hit Exploit:
- Hit with hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving no unequip delay.
- You equip your katana setting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay.
- You equip your hally and your swing is ready. This means that you can swing just about every 1 second machine gunning hally hits.

Fix:
- Hit with a hally setting your hally delay to 5 seconds.
- Unequip hally receiving an unequip delay of 2 seconds. <<DEBATEABLE
- You equip your katana resetting your delay to a little over a second.
- You unequip your katana after waiting that little delay applying the unequip delay.
- You equip your hally after this and it RESETS, because you have a delay.

Double Hit Exploit fixed...

How hard can it be to understand something so simple...

Please don't ask me why they made the unequip delay 2 seconds. I have no clue why this was ever developed... The unequip mechanism worked exactly the same way as the equip mechanism involving the weapon timer conversion, however this was clearly stated to be 2 seconds on stratics. This falls in line with MANY people here that remembers that you could cast an ebolt to skip your previous hally delay.

This is clearly shown in the screen shot from wtfman.com that shows a hally, ebolt, hally, ebolt during 3 greater heals which has a time frame of 1.25x3 in seconds with a possible 0.75x2 for a recovery delay. That is an equivalent of 5.25 seconds in ALL. Please explain to me how two hally hits that has a 5 second delay occurred in a time frame of 5.25s? Please?

The issue I have is with the flat 2 second timer. I simply do not think they did this Faust. Its totally off not a fix to the bug. It doesn't speak to the claim they fixed a bug with slower weapons. It would only be adding 500 ms to a 4.5 to 5 second problem.

There's nothing else to support this than one entry on a page full of other unimplemented 'fixes'. I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough considering all the time and opportunity there was to document this mechanic in the UO WebSpace.

As far as the journal entry you show from WTFman, without a time stamp all it proves is the order of casts and doesn't prove the amount of elsapsed time. If that elasped time was present then you'd have strong evidence.

It is well documented in anecdotal evidence that ebolts refresh your hally swing (or 2 harms). In fact, some of the first RUNUO Preuor shards actually used a straight up "spells refresh your swing" code, where literally it was the casting of a spell that refreshed your swing. Novus Opiate, a much early attempt at what this shard is attempting, used a similar hally refresh timer. They based it on wrestling, but used an innaccurate wrestle timer to make it a 2s delay. Here, we seem to have found the actually mechanism by which "spells refreshed". I wish I had some actual hard evidence to support this other then just saying "everyone used to say ebolt refreshed your hally".

[Finesse]

i also agree this seems 100% correct to me hally hit wise when the new fastcast system comes in it will improve it greatly i dont think this should be changed in the slightest

[Kraarug]

It is well documented in anecdotal evidence that ebolts refresh your hally swing (or 2 harms). In fact, some of the first RUNUO Preuor shards actually used a straight up "spells refresh your swing" code, where literally it was the casting of a spell that refreshed your swing. Novus Opiate, a much early attempt at what this shard is attempting, used a similar hally refresh timer. They based it on wrestling, but used an innaccurate wrestle timer to make it a 2s delay. Here, we seem to have found the actually mechanism by which "spells refreshed". I wish I had some actual hard evidence to support this other then just saying "everyone used to say ebolt refreshed your hally".

Me too because there is nothing OSI related that shows that there was a fast Hally swing after the patch that fixed it.

I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass but if you can find it please post something. Even if it's anecdotal.

I remember breifly something about a double hally whack but no one ever tried it on me and at one point both my tank mages were stabled because I was having too much fun with my dexxer in and out of town.

A quick story? My dexxer was called 'food boy' because he was a fisher at first... One day when i was just owned in town with my tank mage I decided to make a dex monkey with my friend. Looking at my character, little food boy had 100 dex and 90 str so I macroed him up in hopes of one day getting a name change deed.

Long story short, he would often get pked while fishing so when I got him up to fighting shape I would dress him like a noob fisher and 'bait' would be PKs.

That was almost as much fun as setting up fake house falls with GM trapped boxes!!

[Finesse]

how does insta hit work on the t2a demo?

[Jiggo]

It does not work on the demo. It is prior to instahit being implemented. That is the entire problem. It would be very nice if we could just look at the demo.

I vote we make a dread lord server and just rip the demo.

[RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR]

Here's that post again, from the same website and after your Nighthawk story... <8.19.99

It outlines tactics which includes not using a Hally against a Warrior.

Halberd against a warrior can still be ineffective if the warrior is smart enough to stick to you and spam attack last, why don't you understand this??!?!?

1: 2.1.99 Page by Lord Hades which is the only mention of a possible 2 second unequip delay

This makes it functional to refresh your hally hit, no other timer would allow that, That is huge evidence in itself.

1: 2.26.99 Patch note that says slow moving weapons refeshing faster is fixed.
2: 2.26.99 Markee Dragon post that says arm/disarm aint gonna help you.
3: 9.2.00 JOV PvP Guide which states Hally swings are too slow for Dexxers.

1: Once again this could be referring to the exploit of switching a slow weapon with a fast weapon, why then would someone from UO Stratics be complaining about a 2 second delay that is yet to be put in, a month before? Have they already entered it and not put it in the patch notes? Unlikely the former is much more logical.

Your argument:

The issue I have is with the flat 2 second timer. I simply do not think they did this Faust. Its totally off not a fix to the bug. It doesn't speak to the claim they fixed a bug with slower weapons. It would only be adding 500 ms to a 4.5 to 5 second problem.

My answer: OSI is known for fixing one problem and creating another, adding insta-hit in the first place was a "stupid fix" in there eyes, as they reverted back to the old way of giving you a whole new delay for equipping a new weapon anyways, besides they figured no one was going to exploit it, and people didn't really figure it out because they still thought that refreshing your hit had to do with casting a spell, which explains why it is seldom talked about.

2: He was referring to speeding up your hits by exchanging weapons. That could explain why he states it as Arm/Disarm will not help you, as apposed to Disarming and waiting 2 seconds to hit again will not help you, isn't that logical, as arming and then disarming truly will not help you, you must wait some 2 seconds in between.

3: Once again as I stated if one spams attack last and sticks on the hally mage (which is a seldom used tactic it seems) they will not be able to do the 2 second refresh as they will waste it on a wrestle. Factor that in with the fact that most people thought that a spell was necessary to refresh your hit, and it would seem logical that he would state such a thing, as it is not only likely that you will waste your wrestle, but also you will most likely be disrupted, which with the interrupt timers would be rather taxing.

Faust 2
Cortez 3

3>2 My reference is Newer too.

Cortez Wins

Your gay.

how does insta hit work on the t2a demo?

There is no insta-hit in the T2A Demo, it waits until you are in the middle of your attack animation to do the damage, if that was in here no one would die from melee hits, unless they were AFK.


Ok lets all sum this up then, everyone remembers spell refreshing and Faust's explanation allows for spell refreshing, and it doesn't overpower hallys against dexxers if you play your dexxer right (SPAM ATTACK LAST).

If we were to take this away then there would be no more spell refreshing, and we would be basing our change off of the thought that Faust's change has been implemented with corrupt evidence, which can very well be untrue, and eliminates a Era Accurate Strategy.

Not to mention Tank Mage 1v1 will be completely retarded as you will only be able to swing every 4.5 seconds disallowing for the necessary disrupts.

1v1 Dexxer v Tank Mage will be the same for people playing attack last spamming Dexxers, as you can't really 2 second hit against them anyways, and Dexxers who don't well I guess they will be happy.

I'm guessing Cortez is the Dexxer who don't.

It does not work on the demo. It is prior to instahit being implemented. That is the entire problem. It would be very nice if we could just look at the demo.

I vote we make a dread lord server and just rip the demo.

Lol I totally agree 100% accuracy no problem!