When was "all kill" introduced?

[hai t2a]

Kefka,

I said that I didn't pay much attention towards HOW the multiple animals attacked me in what type of order. However, I do remember only ONE of them attacking me when someone that had a couple pets would use it. I can comment how I remember it anyway that I want. That is like me telling you that you shouldn't make a comment since you never had a tamer during that time period...

The excuse that the patch notes are incorrect is simply not a worthy one in my opinion. I have seen typos in the patch notes, but never a word screw up like that. With the amount of sources that backs up the "target" ability not working it's HIGHLY unlikely.

What exactly do you mean Derrick as extracted the all kill command from the UO client?

"all kill, all fetch" and so on are listed in the Demo's "extraction", or whatever you want to call it. However, not a single person has denied that the game recognises these lines, the discussion is of their behavior.

EDIT: Also, once again I am not trying to be biased here. I will not stick to my point throughout solid evidence, to be honest I was very convinced last night after finding what I did, however Jaster's post raises many questions... I am very doubtful of his point, although it really encourages further research.

[Derrick]

There's a little confusion on that source. The All Kill was not in the demo client, but it is within the patched client as keywords right in with all the others.

At this point I don't think the dispute that All Kill was a valid keyword, the only question is it's behavior.

I think there is substantial evidence here that targeted commands were not relayed to more than one creature.

As I've said before, I appreciate everyone's work on this. It's not about the source of the motivation, but the quality of result.
This is a surprisingly difficult issue to get a definitive answer on it seems and all the evidence that I can see certainly points towards only one pet following a targeted command, but in a haphazard fashion; which was then corrected (the haphazard part) on UO:R release

Along with everything else, I think we have the closing proof on this issue here (Thanks Kavian):
http://web.archive.org/web/200107170749 ... rticle=pvp

The article was clearly written in 1999.

The skill set I recommend is Taming/Lore/Eval/Magery/Resist/Meditation/Wrestling (once locks are in).

Skill locks were both proposed and introduced in 1999

(Note: I say All Follow here but using [pet name] Follow is the preferred way to do it. All Follow will only make one pet follow and it's difficult to determine which pet that will be. Again this is true with All Guard. It's better to use the pet's you want to guard name than it is to say All.)

Say All Follow and target the person you want to die, then use [pet name] Kill.

The likely implementable result of this is that any target commands will only operate on a single pet.

[hai t2a]

In the event that this is implemented, I feel this will be major step forward for accuracy as taming really seemed out of place and another major step forward for balancing field fights.

[Kefka]

Considering that 80%+ of my kills come from the "All Guard Me" command, this change won't affect me much.

The only problem I have is that there is a huge assumption that this article is from the T2A era. There is a single phrase in it which links it to 1999, HOWEVER, at the bottom of the page, it clearly says that it was last edited in 2001. What this means is that the majority of the article could have been written post T2A, and that phrase was never edited out.

But considering that the majority of all decisions on this server are made on assumptions and not facts (yes, everyone is playing a T2A assumption server, not T2A accurate), I'll gladly accept these changes.

Since this is a major taming overhaul, you should fix a few other bugs, and implement a few other "assumption/accurate" changes.

1) The attack bug is still there. If pets are aggressing each other, and they are told to stop, they begin fighting again after their next target is killed. This is not correct, the staff has known it for a long time, and it has yet to be fixed.

2) The guard command. Currently, you cannot have your pets guard other targets. I have NO CLUE why this isn't in the change, for i've brought it up to Derrick many, many times. you should be able to issue pets individual Guard commands, and have them guard other pets, your guildmates, and corpses.

3) Since we are following this article http://web.archive.org/web/200107170749 ... rticle=pvp , you should read it and make every change in the article, not just a select few changes.

Wyrms - My absolute favorite pvp creature. Wyrms are incredibly fast. There is no need for the follow command which saves you some time in targeting.

Currently, pets slow down when they are told to attack their target. According to this "accurate" article, White Wyrms should NOT slow down when told to attack. I'll reiterate, when you tell a white wyrm to attack someone, it should run over to them (while attacking) with the same speed it would when it is following you from the "follow" command.

This patch should not be implemented untill all of these changes are made, although I currently feel that this patch (with the other changes) would be a good step forward for the shard, even if it is based off of assumptions made from a witch hunt.

Thanks!

Edit:

I'd also like to bring up jaster's post from earlier in this thread

You can now give all your pets orders by prefacing your order with "all." For example, saying, "all follow me" will make all your pets follow you. The list of commands this works with is:

* all follow me
* all guard me
* all come
* all stay
* all guard me
* all stop

http://update.uo.com/design_22.html

-------------------------------------------------------------
Information 1
-------------------------------------------------------------
The all commands when used with a [target] cursor has been fixed. It no longer stores commands to be called up later. When you use an all command with [target] cursor, it will give you a system message that you can't use the all command with a target cursor and the last pet that was commanded will follow your command.

http://www.tamingarchive.com/updates/uor.php

This shows that it wasn't UNTIL UOR that the ALL commands commanded a single pet! Derrick has also linked to the tamingarchive.com website in the past to reference taming accuracies.

Thanks!

--Kefka

[Kaivan]

Since this has become somewhat of a "hot" topic, I feel that I need to step in and say a few things. First off, the information that Hemperor provided was not independent research that he did on his own. The information that he linked is information that I gave him a few weeks ago after I had conducted a good portion of the research myself. Secondly, the information contained within the Stratics archives of the taming guide from June 2000 may have been archived from that date, but the information inside references taming methods, and information dating from around November 1999. This is made clear by the fact that several methods of transferring animals and taming techniques that were not possible during UOR are stated as the suggested means of handling the profession. Finally, as a small bit of filler information, here is a quote from the archived version of the taming archive that gives a more detailed explanation of what happened when using the "all" command with targetted commands during pre UOR:

The "all" command does not work for orders that require a target
This is the fix for the bug where it would store commands and call them later. When the "all" commands were introduced, they were never meant to be used with a [target] cursor. As a result, when telling 3 pets to "all attack", only 1 would attack, and the other 2 attack commands were stored away and retrieved when your next target cursor came up. This now only tells the last pet you commanded to follow your command without storing the other commands.

The archived page can be found here.

I would offer an explanation of exactly what occurs when you did use a command like that, but it's pretty self explanatory.

[Kefka]

Can you address these other issues.

Since this is a major taming overhaul, you should fix a few other bugs, and implement a few other "assumption/accurate" changes.

1) The attack bug is still there. If pets are aggressing each other, and they are told to stop, they begin fighting again after their next target is killed. This is not correct, the staff has known it for a long time, and it has yet to be fixed.

2) The guard command. Currently, you cannot have your pets guard other targets. I have NO CLUE why this isn't in the change, for i've brought it up to Derrick many, many times. you should be able to issue pets individual Guard commands, and have them guard other pets, your guildmates, and corpses.

3) Since we are following this article http://web.archive.org/web/200107170749 ... rticle=pvp , you should read it and make every change in the article, not just a select few changes.
Quote:
Wyrms - My absolute favorite pvp creature. Wyrms are incredibly fast. There is no need for the follow command which saves you some time in targeting.

Currently, pets slow down when they are told to attack their target. According to this "accurate" article, White Wyrms should NOT slow down when told to attack. I'll reiterate, when you tell a white wyrm to attack someone, it should run over to them (while attacking) with the same speed it would when it is following you from the "follow" command.

[Kaivan]

These are issues that I've seen as well when gathering information. We've been discussing how to deal with these issues one by one amongst the staff, and all of the issues that you listed, among other things, are issues that I have found information on, and made special note of for discussion. To be perfectly honest, this is a pretty major overhaul of the taming system, and will likely take some time to do correctly because of the tight relationship that pet AI (monster AI in general really), and taming functionality have with each other.

[Derrick]

I agree that your points 1, 2 and 3 should be in this patch as well, and have not said they would not be.
I specifically said that things may very well be added or removed, and have simply asked for testing at this point.
The guard command specifically has been slated for some time for implementation, and is only not in already for the difficulty and time required to implement it.

I did not miss the timestamp on the PVP essay, but since it is consistent with just about everything else that's been read on target all commands, I don't see any overwhelming reason to believe that it doesn't fall within the original context. You are correct that much of the evidence we are using here is not a closed book, but the conclusion is consistent with many player memories, web sites and essays that have been found.

I've not had one tamer from the era tell me that All Kill <target> sent all your pets after one target simultaneously. If someone would like to make that claim, I'd appreciate the post being made immediately in this thread.

[Kefka]

Thank you.

I appreciate that this will be a complete and not selective overhaul.

[Stranger]

Why would "All follow" and "All stay" work with all pets, but "All kill" only send one pet? It doesnt make sense to me. Its an "All" command. Why would it only work on one pet, and only during one instance of the command? Unfortunatly, I was a Tamer during REN and not T2A so I cant comment for sure, but I do not see why it would have worked only sending in 1 pet, and then OSI would have made the change. It doesnt add up.

[Jaster]

It seemed to work that way with all target commands.

[Hemperor]

Since this has become somewhat of a "hot" topic, I feel that I need to step in and say a few things. First off, the information that Hemperor provided was not independent research that he did on his own. The information that he linked is information that I gave him a few weeks ago after I had conducted a good portion of the research myself.

Kaivan, you never linked me anything, not that I remember at least. I'll give you that you told me about the "all kill" situation which lead to my research, but don't try and pull away from that. I do realise that (from Derrick's post) that had already gathered similar evidence directing towards the same assumption...I just find it slightly insulting that you are saying that I merely "copied" you... I was up late doing this!

[Hemperor]

Why would "All follow" and "All stay" work with all pets, but "All kill" only send one pet? It doesnt make sense to me. Its an "All" command. Why would it only work on one pet, and only during one instance of the command? Unfortunatly, I was a Tamer during REN and not T2A so I cant comment for sure, but I do not see why it would have worked only sending in 1 pet, and then OSI would have made the change. It doesnt add up.

This goes along with everyone's memory, there is clear evidence to back it up. I find it hardly a coincidence that ONLY tamers from this shard are the only ones coming out here to say it's wrong...just as they failed to report that pet commands have no tile range.

[Kefka]

Kaivan wrote:
Since this has become somewhat of a "hot" topic, I feel that I need to step in and say a few things. First off, the information that Hemperor provided was not independent research that he did on his own. The information that he linked is information that I gave him a few weeks ago after I had conducted a good portion of the research myself.

Hemperor:
Kaivan, you never linked me anything, not that I remember at least. I'll give you that you told me about the "all kill" situation which lead to my research, but don't try and pull away from that. I do realise that (from Derrick's post) that had already gathered similar evidence directing towards the same assumption...I just find it slightly insulting that you are saying that I merely "copied" you... I was up late doing this!

I don't know why anyone is trying to claim "props" for performing this half-assed research. I found the EXACT same information long before any of this stuff was posted, and it took me 20 minutes. It's not that hard, and it's nothing to brag about.

Like Derrick already stated, everything that was posted (which has already been posted about 5 other times on the forum, try using the SEARCH feature), resulted in inconclusive evidence which made it impossible for him to make any changes.

It wasn't until Kavian found that "how to pvp as a tamer" article, that derrick decided to implement some changes (both good and bad).

Bragging about shitty half-assed research is like being proud that you can tie your shoes because you have down syndrome.

If Kavian can put this much effort into the real issues on this server, I believe that it's growth will soon become exponential.

--Kefka

[Hemperor]

I am not bragging, and I found that "pvp as a tamer article" a long time ago when the "Dragons & Reds" discussion was brought up. I realise Kaivan had already come to this conclusion himself, however Derrick clearly wasn't aware of any proof and neither were you all, I went and gathered it.

You are right that it was very simple research, which is why you all need to accept it.