Some suggested changes for Accuracy!

[archaicsubrosa77]

From your research it definitely sounds like crystal balls were at least as common as blood vials or other spawned semi rares, and if they could be given to vendors then they were probably sold on them.

[Rhaps]

Demo is basically always 100% accurate at least to a certain point and time in Ultima Online. The most concrete source ever IMO.

I think in this case the amount of posts from usenet users regaurding the general common nature of regular crystal balls both before, during and after era cannot be ignored. Coupled with the memories of a few of our older players from back then I don't think this should be dismissed due to an answer not being found in the demo alone.

After all, the demo can only prove what it includes. But the demo, by it's nature as a demo, is not a 100% complete representation.

[Hemperor]

Demo is basically always 100% accurate at least to a certain point and time in Ultima Online. The most concrete source ever IMO.

I think in this case the amount of posts from usenet users regaurding the general common nature of regular crystal balls both before, during and after era cannot be ignored. Coupled with the memories of a few of our older players from back then I don't think this should be dismissed due to an answer not being found in the demo alone.

After all, the demo can only prove what it includes. But the demo, by it's nature as a demo, is not a 100% complete representation.

I wasn't commenting on crystal balls actually, has anyone looked into the demo for this? I was commenting on stocking.

And yes, the demo is basically a complete representation:

[Mantis Atlantis]

I have no empirical evidence to offer here, but for the record, I remember plain crystal balls dropping from liches all the time. Mage vendors sold them for relatively cheap. Giving any item to an NPC would increase your karma, and I believe it was based on the value of the item. At no point in time since I started playing UO do I remember plain crystal balls ever being a rare item.

That said, I played UO for the first time on akanigit's account in October 1999, so this was toward the end of the T2A era.

[shard]

I'm not sure if this counts as proof or not on the subject, but i would like to point out this online web comic from the days of old school UO. This piticular comic was written during the "Clean up brittania" event in October 1999.

http://www.imanewbie.com/loband/lo-ima-frameset.shtml

for those of you who haven't read it, it is really hilarious and i highly recommend it.

EDIT: Sorry, can only link to the main site, check out episode 88 for the stuff applicable to the discussion.

P.S. I also remember most humanoid monsters dropping backpacks when you killed them. This continued well on into Renaissance as well.

[Rhaps]

From your research it definitely sounds like crystal balls were at least as common as blood vials or other spawned semi rares, and if they could be given to vendors then they were probably sold on them.

This is a good point, would explain why I didn't see a mention of them being sold on mage vendors. It also backs that whole giving them to mage vendors for karma thing that I saw mentioned in the usenet posts.

I'm not sure if this counts as proof or not on the subject, but i would like to point out this online web comic from the days of old school UO. This piticular comic was written during the "Clean up brittania" event in October 1999.

http://www.imanewbie.com/loband/lo-ima-frameset.shtml

Checked out the comic in question, it helps back up the case for Crystal Balls indeed being very common. That said I wasn't quite able to put a timeframe on when the comic was made exactly to see if it was in-era or not.

I wasn't commenting on crystal balls actually, has anyone looked into the demo for this? I was commenting on stocking.

And yes, the demo is basically a complete representation:

I see. I only say that becuase Faust posted earlier staying he didn't see anything on stratics or the demo code. Wether this was to do with Crystal Balls or the restocking isn't clear. If it's to do with Crystal Balls it pretty much proves in my mind the Demo is not 100% complete for all aspects of the game, as in it at least does not contain information for all loot spawns/drops.

[archaicsubrosa77]

No demo in the history of gaming has ever been definitive of the completed game.
That's why it's a demo.

[Hemperor]

No demo in the history of gaming has ever been definitive of the completed game.
That's why it's a demo.

I don't think there has ever been a single confirmed thing missing from the demo, it's all in there.

Nested backpack loot (packs upon packs of crap) was removed mid Pre-T2A however majority of loot still appeared in backpacks within the monsters, not sure when this changed but I believe it to be accurate for T2A as well.

[Rhaps]

Currently It would be great if someone with the knowhow, Faust or Batlin etc, could confirm for us if Crystal Balls are a common drop from the demo code.

If they aren't then I think we need to either:

A. Find an suitable explanation for all the first hand accounts across 98-2001 that indicate they were a numerous item, not withstanding the recollections of players who remember that being the case 10 years back.

B. Assume that the Demo is not a 100% complete representation. Being 100% correct 90% of the time isn't good enough.

If they are then it's simple. Implement them as per era-accuracy.

[Hemperor]

Currently It would be great if someone with the knowhow, Faust or Batlin etc, could confirm for us if Crystal Balls are a common drop from the demo code.

If they aren't then I think we need to either:

A. Find an suitable explanation for all the first hand accounts across 98-2001 that indicate they were a numerous item, not withstanding the recollections of players who remember that being the case 10 years back.

B. Assume that the Demo is not a 100% complete representation. Being 100% correct 90% of the time isn't good enough.

If they are then it's simple. Implement them as per era-accuracy.

The only possible things that a crystal ball could be classified under inside a liche's loot would be:

<eq targetables magic 100 1 200 0 0 1 SELFCONTAINED>
<eq activators magic 50 1 100 0 0 1 SELFCONTAINED>

I'm by no means a demo expert, I can look further into this later and even spawn some liches, which would be the easiest way to test.

Could also PM Batlin but the best place I think would be to ask here:
http://forum.joinuo.com/viewforum.php?f=32

[Psilo]

Demo is basically always 100% accurate at least to a certain point and time in Ultima Online. The most concrete source ever IMO.

Yea concrete for that time period, the game was updated rapidly after it was released.

The demo is no more credible than the memories of our loyal players.

[nickhimself]

The ImaNewbie comic in question is here: http://www.imanewbie.com/imatoons/ima88.shtml

He mentions having 2300 Crystal Balls. Normally, using outside sources that are not from OSI would be considered a poor choice but comics like this that depict the era as it was happening are great sources of information. If they were rare, he would not mention having 2300 of them in the same breath as having 5000 backpacks.

I remember crystal balls being sold on mage vendors. NO ONE used them as rare display.

[Psilo]

I remember when I was a newbie back in 1998, I bought a crystal ball from the mage vendor in Brittain and tried clicking on it to see if i could see into the future or something. lol

Then I tossed it.

[Luca|Blight]

Crystal balls were trash items, even more common than necro-regs like blood vials. They definitely were on Liches (and usually not even looted). You'd see them everywhere, not a rare like they are here.

[nickhimself]

They were to mage vendors what heating stands are to alchemist npc's. Stuff people look at but never buy.