Afk resource gathering of reagents, "What is a resource?"

[Elph]

Most of the time the word resource is associated with ore, logs, fish, and other items people can use to train skills. AFK macroing of these items is prohibited on such grounds.

What seems to not be prohibited, is macroing of buying reagents.

I venture to ask here, in what way are reagents not a resource? On what grounds are they exempt from the rule disallowing AFK resource gathering?

Other items prohibited are use to train skills, craft items to be sold, and have some sort of cost to obtain, whether that cost be in bought tools, or crafted ones.

Reagents share these characteristics. The only difference being rather than being mined from a mountain or cut from a tree, they are bought from a vendor.

Sure, someone can make the argument that reagents are bought, and so the cost justifies the lack of rules on AFK gathering of them, but this would be a short sighted distinction. Even if someone crafts shovels from ingots they mine, those ingots have a market value, and thus, cost. Further, the rule stands against AFK resource gathering, not "non-gold required resource gathering."

Since there seems to be no legitimate argument that reagents are not a resource, why is it allowable for them to be AFK farmed?

Let people macrobuy resources, but I would say, as we ask our miners, fishermen, and lumberjacks, at least attend while doing so.

[H2os]

Here Here, I whole heartedly agree.

I will not mention the name of the char I see all the time recall into a mage shop and spam Vendor Buy a few, walk in a certain pattern then recall out. I do love when their walking pattern is on the other side of the room and no vendors are close enough for them to buy, I get a laugh out of that.

[Pirul]

Although I think it's extremely bothersome to get to a shop only to find it has been bought out, and I do not practice nor endorse the mass buying of regs, I think the premise of making it illegal is a little bit off in your post. Allow me to reply by statement.

Most of the time the word resource is associated with ore, logs, fish, and other items people can use to train skills. AFK macroing of these items is prohibited on such grounds.

More than a reply, this is a question. Exactly what do you mean by: "other items people can use to train skills"? Dunno what could fall there, so I can't really comment on that. Otherwise you got it spot on.

What seems to not be prohibited, is macroing of buying reagents.

I venture to ask here, in what way are reagents not a resource? On what grounds are they exempt from the rule disallowing AFK resource gathering?

In the sense that they are not bringing new gold into the economy. Gold is being spent to buy them, and therefore being taken OUT of the economy.

Other items prohibited are use to train skills, craft items to be sold, and have some sort of cost to obtain, whether that cost be in bought tools, or crafted ones.

This is misinterpreted. You can use ANY resource afk to train skill. You can also craft ANY item afk to be sold in the future WHILE ATTENDING.

Reagents share these characteristics. The only difference being rather than being mined from a mountain or cut from a tree, they are bought from a vendor.

Well, therein lies the pickle. It is not created from thin air. Gold is spent in exchange for it.

Sure, someone can make the argument that reagents are bought, and so the cost justifies the lack of rules on AFK gathering of them, but this would be a short sighted distinction. Even if someone crafts shovels from ingots they mine, those ingots have a market value, and thus, cost. Further, the rule stands against AFK resource gathering, not "non-gold required resource gathering."

What is the market value of reagents? If there's a market value for reagents it's becacuse there's other players willing to pay the premium for not having to buy mass regs themselves, because their time is better spent doing something else. If no players want to pay a premium for reagents, the mass buyers will have a HUGE inventory, and won't be in business long. However, at the end of the day, it's a transaction between particulars that makes gold CHANGE hands, again, not be created from thin air (or thick mountain).

Since there seems to be no legitimate argument that reagents are not a resource, why is it allowable for them to be AFK farmed?

Let people macrobuy resources, but I would say, as we ask our miners, fishermen, and lumberjacks, at least attend while doing so.

Well, the argument is there, it is now a question of debunking such argument posted above that regs are indeed not resources.

[Elph]

Although I think it's extremely bothersome to get to a shop only to find it has been bought out, and I do not practice nor endorse the mass buying of regs, I think the premise of making it illegal is a little bit off in your post. Allow me to reply by statement.

I'm not proposing making mass reg buying illegal, I'm proposing the AFK buying to become illegal. Just to clear that up.

More than a reply, this is a question. Exactly what do you mean by: "other items people can use to train skills"? Dunno what could fall there, so I can't really comment on that. Otherwise you got it spot on.

Ore, logs, fish, kindling, all used to train various skills.

I venture to ask here, in what way are reagents not a resource? On what grounds are they exempt from the rule disallowing AFK resource gathering?
In the sense that they are not bringing new gold into the economy. Gold is being spent to buy them, and therefore being taken OUT of the economy.

No gold is created when a player mines or or logs either. And in the case of reagents, with inscripion macros there's no guarantee that the reagents aren't being used to put massive somes of gold into the economy directly from NPCs, as they could with blacksmithy, bowcrafting, tailoring, etc (albeit in arguably smaller increments with these).

This is misinterpreted. You can use ANY resource afk to train skill. You can also craft ANY item afk to be sold in the future WHILE ATTENDING.

I don't see how this applies to what you quoted. I didn't challenge that training can be done AFK. AFK resource gathering is what is at issue here.

Well, therein lies the pickle. It is not created from thin air. Gold is spent in exchange for it.

I addressed this argument. Also, the rule stands against AFK resource macroing, not "AFK resource macroing that involves spending gold." If reagents are a resource (and there seems to be no reason to see them as something different than other resources) then they ought to not be excluded from being disallowed from AFK gathering rules. As it stands now, it is a loophole which allows inscription macroers to easily net millions of gold without attending beyond when they sell the scrolls to NPC's. Other trades simply cannot do that and to do their work within the rules must attend while gathering the required resources.

What is the market value of reagents? If there's a market value for reagents it's becacuse there's other players willing to pay the premium for not having to buy mass regs themselves, because their time is better spent doing something else. If no players want to pay a premium for reagents, the mass buyers will have a HUGE inventory, and won't be in business long. However, at the end of the day, it's a transaction between particulars that makes gold CHANGE hands, again, not be created from thin air (or thick mountain).

Ingots and logs are not gold either. In order to be turned into gold they must be either change hands, like reagents, or be sold to NPC's, like scribed scrolls. The difference, again, being that a scribe can obtain his/her resources to craft AFK while miners and carpenters cannot.

Well, the argument is there, it is now a question of debunking such argument posted above that regs are indeed not resources.

I think it is fairly obvious that they are resources.

[Kaivan]

Ingots and logs are not gold either. In order to be turned into gold they must be either change hands, like reagents, or be sold to NPC's, like scribed scrolls. The difference, again, being that a scribe can obtain his/her resources to craft AFK while miners and carpenters cannot.

While reagents and scrolls are "resources" in the same sense that virtually everything in game is a resource (they can be used up/transformed), it does not fall under the same set of rules that governs our AFK resource gathering policy, which is limited to actions which produce resources that can be directly translated into gold, without any investment. This excludes scrolls from this rule, which cannot be obtained simply by going out and gathering them (that is, they require an investment), while reagents are not an issue in the first place because they both require an investment to acquire (in most cases), and are used to sell between players in most non-combat circumstances, which does not produce or destroy any wealth, merely transfers it. Scrolls, and other forms of AFK NPC "milking" are also prohibited (at the point of sale) for similar reasons, but it does not prevent others from purchasing the items, as the act of purchasing the item is an investment.

[Elph]

While reagents and scrolls are "resources" in the same sense that virtually everything in game is a resource (they can be used up/transformed), it does not fall under the same set of rules that governs our AFK resource gathering policy, which is limited to actions which produce resources that can be directly translated into gold, without any investment. This excludes scrolls from this rule, which cannot be obtained simply by going out and gathering them (that is, they require an investment), while reagents are not an issue in the first place because they both require an investment to acquire (in most cases), and are used to sell between players in most non-combat circumstances, which does not produce or destroy any wealth, merely transfers it. Scrolls, and other forms of AFK NPC "milking" are also prohibited (at the point of sale) for similar reasons, but it does not prevent others from purchasing the items, as the act of purchasing the item is an investment.

Where is the AFK resource gathering rule written so specifically? It seems to be enforced as you describe, but the rule only says: "You may not gather things unattended. This includes Mining, Lumberjacking, lockpicking in dungeons, cotton picking/sheep shearing, and fishing. You may also not sell items to vendors AFK for profit."

Actually, "gathering things" is even less specific than I thought. Reagents are things, no? So obviously gathering them AFK is explicitly against the rules. There is no exemption given for things which are bought, although implicity the rule may be enforced this way.

The fact there is an investment seems irrelevant when the return is never in question. It is as much as an investment as buying $100 bills for $75. I would wonder if most reagents bought really are sold to players or are used to game the inscription system. It's a huge gold faucet. It could very well be drowning the economy. At least if it does so, I would hope it wouldn't be too much to ask for people to attend while doing so.

Even though reagents are not currently enumerated in the list of things not allowable for AFK gathering, I don't think it is a good idea for them not to be. I think I have made a strong case that it is an unreasonable exemption, even granted that the reagents cost gold.

[Kaivan]

While reagents and scrolls are "resources" in the same sense that virtually everything in game is a resource (they can be used up/transformed), it does not fall under the same set of rules that governs our AFK resource gathering policy, which is limited to actions which produce resources that can be directly translated into gold, without any investment. This excludes scrolls from this rule, which cannot be obtained simply by going out and gathering them (that is, they require an investment), while reagents are not an issue in the first place because they both require an investment to acquire (in most cases), and are used to sell between players in most non-combat circumstances, which does not produce or destroy any wealth, merely transfers it. Scrolls, and other forms of AFK NPC "milking" are also prohibited (at the point of sale) for similar reasons, but it does not prevent others from purchasing the items, as the act of purchasing the item is an investment.

Where is the AFK resource gathering written so specifically? It seems to be enforced as you describe, but the rule only says: "You may not gather things unattended. This includes Mining, Lumberjacking, lockpicking in dungeons, cotton picking/sheep shearing, and fishing. You may also not sell items to vendors AFK for profit."

Actually, "gathering things" is even less specific than I thought. Reagents are things, no? So obviously gathering them AFK is explicitly against the rules. There is no exemption given for things which are bought, although implicity the rule may be enforced this way.

The rule has been re-worded in the past, and perhaps our current wording doesn't do our position proper justice. However, we do have an enumeration of things that cannot be gathered, and that list should be followed.

The fact there is an investment seems irrelevant when the return is never in question. It is as much as an investment as buying $100 bills for $75. I would wonder if most reagents bought really are sold to players or are used to game the inscription system. It's a huge gold faucet. It could very well be drowning the economy. At least if it does so, I would hope it wouldn't be too much to ask for people to attend while doing so. This AFK macro business being allowed isn't era accurate anyway, so I don't see why you seem to be defending it.

I definitely disagree with the sentiment that the investment is irrelevant in the face of returns, otherwise all other forms of AFK actions that resulted in some indirect path to greater value would also be forbidden (basically everything). Also, whether the reagents are used to produce something that can later be turned into gold by selling to a vendor while present is irrelevant (also, the amount of gold that can be acquired using this method is extremely limited). The fact is that both reagents and scrolls take a very significant amount of investment of gold to realize any return, while the other listed forms require none, and that rule address that problem. Finally, we do not take the same policy stance on actions that OSI did because we are working in a different environment, which requires accepting certain practicalities of that environment.

Even though reagents are not currently enumerated in the list of things not allowable for AFK gathering, I don't think it is a good idea for them not to be. I think I have made a strong case that it is an unreasonable exemption, even granted that the reagents cost gold.

I don't agree, based on the fact that there is no direct path to extra gold being produced as a result of simply purchasing the reagents. Sure, after converting them into another type of object, and then selling that object to an NPC vendor, some profit can be realized, but we do have a standing rule against that.

[H2os]

I see 25 of each reg being sold on vendors for 1k gp-1.5k gp all the time. I believe the cost would be 650 if they are a member of the mages guild. So that is a profit of 350-850gp. So saying "The fact is that both reagents and scrolls take a very significant amount of investment of gold to realize any return" , is not true.

I do not have any vendors so I have no idea how popular "a bag of regs" are, but that is not the point. Someone is AFK gathering something they are selling for a profit. I feel the same way about rares, you can AFK gather those and sale them for a boat load on vendors.

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viewtopic.php?f=76&t=42701

YEW GATE just added a ton of bandages, thanks hoots!

Bandage prices now 2gp per in 200 count stacks, all rares have been lowered in price and reg bags remain the same 25 of each for 1k.
masks are priced at 3.5 for bear, 3 for deer and feathered tribal , 750 for orc and red tribals.

[Kaivan]

I see 25 of each reg being sold on vendors for 1k gp-1.5k gp all the time. I believe the cost would be 650 if they are a member of the mages guild. So that is a profit of 350-850gp. So saying "The fact is that both reagents and scrolls take a very significant amount of investment of gold to realize any return" , is not true.

No new wealth is made in these transactions, wealth is only transferred.

[H2os]

I do not see how "wealth is only transfered" defines what AFK gathering is. Someone is making a profit by AFK gathering, I am sure someone has a macro to load up his/her vendor with stuff too.

[Kaivan]

I do not see how "wealth is only transfered" defines what AFK gathering is. Someone is making a profit by AFK gathering, I am sure someone has a macro to load up his/her vendor with stuff too.

Gold is being collected in their possession, yet no new gold is being created. That is what our rule addresses.

[H2os]

So I can AFK gather anything I can sale on a vendor in front of my house? No new gold is being created only transfered to me.

[Kaivan]

So I can AFK gather anything I can sale on a vendor in front of my house? No new gold is being created only transfered to me.

No. Unlike purchasing reagents which requires you to make an investment (and thus removes gold from the game), gathering resources while AFK gives you a direct line to extra gold that doesn't involve other players and thus creates new gold. This is not possible with reagents, nor is it possible with scrolls.

[Elph]

The rule has been re-worded in the past, and perhaps our current wording doesn't do our position proper justice. However, we do have an enumeration of things that cannot be gathered, and that list should be followed.

The wording could be done a different way, but the position of allowing AFK reagent buying is still giving an advantage to players who already have gold, and/or already have enough experience in the game to create fairly complex macros to do so. I simply see no reason why it should be allowed. Macrobuying, sure, but why is it pulling teeth, it seems, to suggest people must be at least attended while doing so? Why is this the position you seem to be defending?

I definitely disagree with the sentiment that the investment is irrelevant in the face of returns, otherwise all other forms of AFK actions that resulted in some indirect path to greater value would also be forbidden (basically everything). Also, whether the reagents are used to produce something that can later be turned into gold by selling to a vendor while present is irrelevant (also, the amount of gold that can be acquired using this method is extremely limited). The fact is that both reagents and scrolls take a very significant amount of investment of gold to realize any return, while the other listed forms require none, and that rule address that problem. Finally, we do not take the same policy stance on actions that OSI did because we are working in a different environment, which requires accepting certain practicalities of that environment.

I'm not suggesting going back to disallowing all AFK activity, but AFK gathering of reagents meets the same criteria as other gathering. I don't see how your disagreement with the investment being irrelevant applies. Plenty of AFK macroing actions do not gather anything at all, training hiding, lore skills, combat skills, etc. No gathering involved, so to say that this is somehow a slippery slope is a fallacious argument that ignores the fact that mass buying reagents while AFK is gathering.

I do agree that whether they are made into scrolls is irrelevant, but to say 50k a day doing nothing more than selling products which were gathered for a produced completely AFK is extremely limited, I think, is out of touch with many players, especially new ones, who could not make that much every day if they tried. And the amount of investment is directly proportional to the amount of return, its not like one must invest a large sum to see a profit at all, large sums end up being large profits. And even so, this whole aspect of the argument is still irrelevant, due to the fact that the rule says nothing of whether or not the AFK gathering eventually results in profit. It is probably assumed, however, that it does. Inscription, however, gets a loophole, and thus, gets to be used in the way that I'm sure many blacksmiths and bowyers would like to, but cannot, due to an exception that has no grounds aside from the fact gold is being spent. In none of the cases is gold being immediately produced.

I don't agree, based on the fact that there is no direct path to extra gold being produced as a result of simply purchasing the reagents. Sure, after converting them into another type of object, and then selling that object to an NPC vendor, some profit can be realized, but we do have a standing rule against that.

I would question what you mean by "direct path." A player can directly turn them into scrolls and sell them. This is no different than if a blacksmith directly turned ingots into coifs and sold them. With the argument you are using, other gathering does not "directly" produce extra gold either.


Is it really too much to watch the screen while macrobuying reagents? Why are you opposed to this idea? Are you worried that a few players might be butthurt when they lose perhaps the easiest way on this server to make gold, one that requires almost no active playing whatsoever?

[Elph]

So I can AFK gather anything I can sale on a vendor in front of my house? No new gold is being created only transfered to me.

No. Unlike purchasing reagents which requires you to make an investment (and thus removes gold from the game), gathering resources while AFK gives you a direct line to extra gold that doesn't involve other players and thus creates new gold. This is not possible with reagents, nor is it possible with scrolls.

This is simply not true. Mining and lumberjacking do not produce a "direct line" to extra gold any more than reagents do. Both must be crafted into a sellable item, or sold to another player to be turned into gold.

The only difference is that players must spend gold to buy reagents.

I see no reason to defend a way that people can not play the game at all, and reportedly make 50k a day (without multiple scribes) doing nothing more than saying "vendor sell" to NPC's. Are you worried that some people might be unhappy if they could no longer make gold in this way?


You seem to be drastically minimizing the effect of NPC scroll selling, and yet, when I visit mages it seems they have PILES of sold scrolls, often the same ones, in mass quantities (not simply from PVM or t-maps). It's not like no one is doing it, in fact, it's being done in large quantities, on a consistent basis.