my annual try

[BlackLeaf]

the story as i see it.3ds proposed are examples,and many others can be found with similar subjects.


before:
-https://groups.google.com/group/rec.gam ... f17108f5b7
/2ed4043de48b4edb?hl=nl&lnk=gst&q=%22ultima+online%22+hidden+snooping#2ed4043de48b4edb

The only time I really had a problem with stealthing *theives* was
when I was in a very vendor rich environment so couldn't track the
thief due to all the vendors. All the other times it was like a game
of Destroyer vs. Submarine and was actually kinda fun.

Perhaps snooping reveals you? That would really pretty much nullify
any *major* antisocial gain from the skill.

a person complaining about stealth thieves.

after:
-https://groups.google.com/group/rec.gam ... b531be9db4

Can one steel
while
> hidden or stealthed?
No, but IIRC the current hiding/stealth rules say you can snoop while
hidden.

I remain hidden/stealthed while you
are walking around. I bring up your pack and double click it which puts it
in last object even though you are not next to me. Now if you walk by me or
I get next to you, I just hit last object and your pack is open.

note the guy is talking about hiding/stealth rules,not only hiding rules.another things is that this guy cleary states that he remain stealthed while opening packs.
unfortunately this is a greysh area,because someone later notice:

You were supposed to be able to with the patch that let you do a few other
skills (EI, Anatomy, etc) hidden, but you can't.
Unless they recently fixed it.

it is clear that a change occurred,but for some reason,or some bug,that change had some problem (Unless they recently fixed it,at the time of this 3d,consistently with the original question)

also:

There is no patch to indicate this during T2A

this patch looks kinda bugged ,this can be a logical reason to why it is somewhat ghostly

finally
-https://groups.google.com/group/rec.gam ... 3f03d377cc

Maybe that's why they let thieves snoop while hidden again.

note the word "again",meaning something has changed and than chage back to what was before.

this last is from really late t2a/early uor,but they help me getting to my point:

in oreder of time:
1-u can stealth and snoop (1998)
2-a first patch changed it (spring 1999)
3-a second,somewhat bugged,patch "fixed" it (summer 1999)
4-graysh area (autumn 1999,winter 2000) <---we are here
5-u can definitely stealth and snoop again(2000)

maybe they are not the 2 weeks i was talking about(considering the bugged patch),but without any doubt it is something that was added,and shortly after removed and brought back to what it was.

[Kaivan]

This is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to player information. Players didn't always have a good idea what the actual rules were at the time. For example, take this quote from a post on December 30, 1999:

2. Snooping is nerfed. It is totally worthless to the Rogue. I can hide
and I can walk 16 spaces in stealth walking. But when I snoop a pack,
I'm revealed. It does me no good then to even stealth up to you. The
only way to counteract this is by waiting next to the person you want to
snoop, snooping, waiting for his pack to open and then hiding again.
Hopefully you hide successful and the player does not notice.

This player has a clear understanding of how snooping works, but their information doesn't match the information you posted about snooping and staying hidden.

----

As for the following posts from your source, there is the story behind that.

First, your source has the following statement by someone

No, but IIRC the current hiding/stealth rules say you can snoop while
hidden.

Then, someone quotes him and says the following:

> No, but IIRC the current hiding/stealth rules say you can snoop while
> hidden.

You were supposed to be able to with the patch that let you do a few other
skills (EI, Anatomy, etc) hidden, but you can't.
Unless they recently fixed it.

The second quote gives us some information regarding when the change to snooping while hidden occurred. Specifically, in the same patch that changed other skills such as anatomy and Evaluating Intelligence. Well, that patch was the Live access patch of August 26, 1999. The relevant line of that patch is as follows:

The following skills will not unhide you when they are used: Detect Hidden, Item Identification, Anatomy, Arms Lore, Animal Lore, Evaluate Intellect, Forensics Evaluation, and Poisoning.

But this only answers part of the question. Apparently, this poster thinks that snooping was supposed to be changed with this patch as well. But why? It's pretty clear that the patch notes don't change snooping at all. Well, it turns out this newsgroup thread has a discussion on the very subject:

According to the Origin site using snooping while hidden should no
longer unhide you. Well, when I tried a few minutes ago, it still
does. So what is going on? Origin couldn't be *gasps* lying to us
could they??

Tleaf - Europa

This is interesting, because later on in the page, a player takes a direct quote from the OSI website at the time which says the following:

Nope. The direct quote from Origin's page is as follows: under 'Other
Changes'

'The following skills will not unhide you when they are used:
Snooping, Detect Hidden, Item Identification, Anatomy, Arms Lore,
Animal Lore, Evaluate Intellect, Forensics Evaluation, and Poisoning.
'

and indeed it is true for all the other skills listed, but not
snooping. Hmmm...

Sound familiar? This is exactly the same line item from the live access patch, but this one includes snooping. So, at some point, OSI had advertised that snooping wasn't going to reveal you. But this begs the question: Why?

Well, it turns out that a couple of months earlier, Siege Perilous had received an update that allowed you to snoop and remain hidden. This change is discussed in this newsgroup post:

Fripp> *Mo* With the removal of Stat loss is it possible that we might
see an increase stealing range or at least snooping range for theifs?
Runesabre> We won't be changing the stealing radius or snooping radius
but we did make it so that snooping will not unhide you.

So, let's take a look at Siege Perilous now. If we look at an archived version of the OSI Siege Perilous guide (a great place to get information on Siege if you're interested), we can find the following quote regarding skills:

The following skills will not unhide you when they are used: Snooping, Detect Hidden, Item Identification, Anatomy, Arms Lore, Animal Lore, Evaluate Intellect, Forensics Evaluation, and Poisoning.

Again, this is a very familiar line item (read: exactly the same). This tells us that the live access patch was first introduced on Siege Perilous and was introduced on OSI servers a couple of months later. However, it is clear that the patch underwent a single change between it's introduction on Siege and its implementation on the rest of the OSI servers, and that was the removal of the changes to snooping. However, the initial live access patch notes didn't document this change, and were unintentionally given the exact same set of patch notes as the Siege implementation. This is later corrected and can be seen without an error on the current day live access patch notes posted earlier.

Of course, this isn't the only time that a patch note was edited after being put up. The patch that introduced the exceptional tag was subsequently changed after its implementation. A mini patch located here (this link will give you a 403 access forbidden error, but it was viewable at one time) talks about the change to the system that was in place. This is the relevant line-item from this patch (I had quoted it in another thread):

The [exceptional] tag will be removed and replaced with a new system of marking exceptional items. As an example, an exceptional katana made by a non-Grandmaster smith or made by a Grandmaster smith who chooses not to put his makers mark, will now say, "a katana of exceptional quality". An exceptional katana made by a Grandmaster smith who chooses to place his maker’s mark on it will say, "a katana crafted with exceptional quality by..." This will be true for all exceptional items.

If we compare this with the current OSI page regarding the marker's mark, we can see that the patch note reflects the updated exceptional mechanics, which means that it was changed after the fact.

In any case, I hope that this provides enough detail to show that snooping wasn't actually changed during the summer of 99, and that an error in the patch notes caused most players to be confused about the actual functionality of snooping.

[Telamon]

.

[BlackLeaf]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT



well...let's go siege then (that sure will be 0% trammel)
(anyways in a year i'll come back asking for siege if not done yet)

i love you all

[Derrick]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT

Kaivan needs his own blog.
Honestly it's a shame that such detailed info such as this gets buried so easily in the forums. Anyone have an idea how we might preserve explainations like this a little better?

[tanmits]

The wiki?

[Derrick]

The wiki?

link at the top of the forums, third link down on the left:
http://wiki.uosecondage.com/

[DrFaustus]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT

Kaivan needs his own blog.
Honestly it's a shame that such detailed info such as this gets buried so easily in the forums. Anyone have an idea how we might preserve explainations like this a little better?

Idea: Delete all the goobers that troll the boards...that would leave about 3 posters including Kaivan.

[chainsoar]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT

Kaivan needs his own blog.
Honestly it's a shame that such detailed info such as this gets buried so easily in the forums. Anyone have an idea how we might preserve explainations like this a little better?

Idea: Delete all the goobers that troll the boards...that would leave about 3 posters including Kaivan.

It won't be the same around here without you Doc...

[Kaivan]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT

Kaivan needs his own blog.
Honestly it's a shame that such detailed info such as this gets buried so easily in the forums. Anyone have an idea how we might preserve explainations like this a little better?

Unfortunately, I don't blog

[Blaise]

^ Epic explanation.

QFT

Kaivan needs his own blog.
Honestly it's a shame that such detailed info such as this gets buried so easily in the forums. Anyone have an idea how we might preserve explainations like this a little better?

Unfortunately, I don't blog

How about some properly formatted additions to the Wiki?
I'm not a fan of blogging either, but the value therein is certainly nice for any community if done well.