Swing on the run

[iamreallysquall]

a bug caused this sotr and the way swing state is being dealt with and is not accurate. and Hally cycling an another topic is not accurate at all.

[Mikel123]

Oh no, I most certainly believe that dex should influence your attack frequency. I just think that it has been VASTLY accelerated across the board here on UOSA to facilitate some sort of free-shard style of pvp that never existed. Every 2 seconds really? The halberd should take what 10+ seconds to hit with 25 dex but OSI is going to allow a bug to use it (the strongest weapon even) every 2 seconds with 25-35 dex? ..and allow that for the whole "age" basically? Give me a break.

You have a good point about not seeing hally cycling in 1999. But you're incorrect about this above (that dex and swing speed is accelerated here). The formula for weapon speed, stamina, and swing time could not be more certain. In fact, Xena Dragon sent an old email that he had, from 1999, in which someone counted katana swings in 60 seconds with a precise stamina and counted the swings and it followed the Stratics formula perfectly. I suppose you could argue that the speed factor of the halberd on Stratics is wrong, but even that is irrelevant, because it's not the halberd speed factor that's causing this to happen, it's the wrestling speed factor.

Given that it's entirely possible that OSI didn't know about it - because you and I and perhaps everyone here didn't know about it - I don't think it's a matter of them "allowing" it or not.

Given the convergence of demo code with some patch note interpretations, and a Japanese site from the era that details the technique, I find it hard to disagree with. Your best bet IMO might be to figure out if the Japanese info wasn't from 1999, or perhaps find someone who speaks better Japanese and English than Google Translate to give a better sense of what that site is talking about.

[tanmits]

While I agree we should look into the swing timer mechanics, this needs to be a separate thread for discussion.

As for Swing on the Run, last night saw some of the best PVP I've seen since being here. I got so caught up in the action that I rezzed a char in stat loss. And all of this fun without GMs spawning tons of creatures, opening gates to battles, or turning off guards! There were people everywhere.

[itwouldbewise]

Regarding SOTR:
I hope I'm not misunderstanding the whole discussion here (there seems to be a lot of ambiguity), but I'm assuming that SOTR means you can "hold" a swing (i.e. as soon as the timer for the "ready" swing state is reached, it stays ready) such that as soon as you are close enough the swing will go off... Perhaps I'm mixing this up, so correct me if I'm wrong... but anyway

Here's my two cents:

• It's extremely difficult to kill somebody as it is if (err.. when is the better word) they decide to run. If you this mechanic is not in place, that only exacerbates this already very annoying fact.
• If you can't SOTR, it makes it far more difficult to have any control over when your damage is going to be inflicted, thus making PvP more random (and thus less fun since more random = less skill-based = less you can improve upon and become better at)
• Regardless of the mechanic (although I seem to remember in T2A being able to have a held hit go to work as soon as I got close enough), it simply makes sense that somebody who is "ready" to attack can do it while running at them... it just doesn't make sense to have to go stand next to them a while before you can swing.
• I don't quite understand the problem that Dexxers have with this--is it that hally mages can get attacks off as quickly as the Dexxer can by avoiding you for long enough for their timer to recharge? That is true, but also, this means that you need to practice staying ahead of your opponent (you know that on your screen, if you are running side by side with somebody, they are actually ahead of you, right? Simple latency rules--just like how you have to lead your shots in most online FPS games to make up for the latency). It also means the mage has to practice avoiding. You also do extra damage because you have anatomy, and if you have good armor on the hally hits often do weak damage. If mages have to carry 1.5k gold worth of regs (~50 of each), it seems like you can afford the armor and other magic items for a similar price.

You can be a very good at playing a dexxer--particularly if you hang with a mage... I know Ratliff (a dexxer) and Malice have done very well against me (2v2). I've also fought other dexxers 1v1 that have given me a run for my money. It takes practice, though--don't expect to have a 7x GM warrior, get whomped a few times and think "oh I can't compete because I'm a dexxer"...

Regarding Hally cycling:
When I played in the T2A era, I don't remember cycling at all, but that is NOT necessarily because it was not possible. At the time, I don't think that I had UOAssist--I don't think it was legal yet (and I didn't use UOExtreme or any illegal third party programs either). I don't remember if UO had it's built-in "arm/disarm" macro yet. I'm inclined to think that it did not. I remember dragging weapons a lot--which was a big hassle, and there is simply no way to cycle a weapon in that way. Again, it could certainly have been possible as far as game mechanics go.

I think that hally cycling in fact makes this game better. I think it requires quite a bit of practice to learn the timer, as well as to use it effectively in PvP against various opponents. It is therefore a skill that can actually separate good PvPers from bad PvPers. The more "skills" that can be developed for effective PvP, the more interesting PvP is. This reminds me of how Jedi Knight II where the "backslash" single-kill move (which took significant practice and made you stay on your toes) could be accelerated by spinning your character around. They removed this ability in an update and made the backslash weaker along with other nerfs that made it difficult to actually kill somebody, and it completely fractured the online presence of the game--some servers were still running the older version. In any case, I think removing hally cycling would make it very difficult to kill anybody with a tank mage. It's hard enough to kill somebody who is careful as it is, even with being able to hally swing quickly. Taking hally cycling out would (1) make it less fun and interesting to PvP since it take far more coordination to take advantage of cycling than to run after somebody with a broadsword and use magery and (2) just move PvP into a random game of "I hope this exp e-bolt and hally combo gets him THIS time" and then, when the combo failed yet again, having to meditate and wait forever till you can try it again (which, btw would only become FAR worse if there were no SOTR / held hally hits).

Dexxers can cycle too. You can cycle far faster with higher stamina--In fact my med-warrior char can get hally hits off every second (which is really nasty if I land the hits). It's a level playing field in that regard. It does take practice, but that's a good thing. Besides, for pure dexxers, good armor can make hally hits regularly do weak damage.

[Sandro]

great post

unfortunately the staff do not care what-so-ever about anything you just wrote

all they care about is accuracy which will moot every single one of your valid points

sad but true

[Ronk]

great post

unfortunately the staff do not care what-so-ever about anything you just wrote

all they care about is accuracy which will moot every single one of your valid points

sad but true

I wouldn't call that sad. The reason I came to UOSA is because the Bloodrock came here. The reason I like UOSA is because the devs aren't constantly implementing new 'cool' things just because someone says "I think..." or "wouldn't it be cool if?". Yeah, its cool...until you 50 different opinions of cool.

However, the dexxing topic is not a closed topic. There is evidence pointing both ways and there are some (in my opinion dangerous) assumptions being made about patch notes. Its an instance where I don't think you'll ever find a 'smoking gun' that says "yes, this is how it is". As such, my personal opinion is it should be done in the way that most closely resembles what the majority remember from T2A, as well as what is best for the shard's population/playability.

[ehafh]

great post

unfortunately the staff do not care what-so-ever about anything you just wrote

all they care about is accuracy which will moot every single one of your valid points

sad but true

i think its kind of cool they have a rule set to work toward.
a lot of other servers just seem to be pure hybrid crap.
also i don't agree that that's all they consider.
if that was the case we'd have no barbie doll dressed up vendors.
i disputed that, it wasn't available during this era and they said nope.
they considered the players in that instance.

this shard feels roughly the same as when i played 2 years ago,
that's awesome and that's largely why i came back to uo.

[tanmits]

Swinging on the run isn't holding your swing, it means you don't have to stop to restart your weapon's swing timer. Without it, one would have to stop moving for 0.25-0.4 seconds before they could swing again. Now that timer resets automatically while moving. Combat is faster paced and people are, if only slightly, easier to kill.

Regarding SOTR:
Dexxers can cycle too. You can cycle far faster with higher stamina--In fact my med-warrior char can get hally hits off every second (which is really nasty if I land the hits). It's a level playing field in that regard. It does take practice, but that's a good thing. Besides, for pure dexxers, good armor can make hally hits regularly do weak damage.

From my limited testing there are awkward built-in delays that make it almost impossible to try and cycle faster than 1.9 seconds. I had a hybrid char I tried to cycle fencing weapons with on 50 dex, and good cyclers were able to cycle their hallies as fast as the game's delays allowed me to cycle my warfork.

[Blaise]

Accurate or not, I don't really give a crap about all this back and forth about what's right and what's not.


I'll tell you what's right.....being able to hit someone I'm within blade's reach of, regardless of movement.

Whether this is an unintended bug of some other nature, perhaps it's more like the car that 'fixed itself'.

Why do work to make things worse? Aside from Matron de Doesn't Play Anymore, I haven't seen anyone but staff arguing against this.

Point being, if everyone who ACTUALLY plays UOSA is indicating that this finally FEELS RIGHT, WHY THE *(&^*&%$&^%$&%$ WOULD YOU CHANGE IT BACK?

For the first time in my existence on this shard I ran outside and hacked up some wildlife and it felt like the real deal! If I run past you with a sword in my hand, I don't need to stop to extend my arm and cut you.

NEA or not, it is utter trash and bullshit to remove this functionality when it has absolutely NO negative impact on the shard, and in fact has made the vast majority happy that their dust-collecting warriors can finally go field again without embarrasment from dieing all the time, or rocking 250k worth of gear every time they step outside.

Sincerely,
Stubborn-assed Warrior with no magic, Sturm.

[itwouldbewise]

Swinging on the run isn't holding your swing, it means you don't have to stop to restart your weapon's swing timer.

Hmm.. I see--thanks for the clarification. Reading all the posts, I've had trouble figuring out exactly what all the fuss is about... I'm still not quite clear (if what you say is true) what all the fuss is about... what you are saying means that insta-hit (i.e. HELD swing) is not the issue here...

This is my understanding based on what you just said: So you mean that you have to stop for a moment, EVEN IF you haven't dropped your weapon to cycle it, in order to swing again? Yea, I could see how that could be annoying for a Dexxer who's trying to stay close to a target and constantly moving to do so and how it doesn't affect mages so much because they often stop to cast a quick spell anyway as they are hally cycling... So is that what this is about? This "stopping time" required before another attack... was it removed recently or something? Has it not existed and recently been implemented? Please clear this up for me b/c this topic is really ambiguous to me. Maybe an example would be helpful if you can provide one--something on the order of "I am a mage tank and after hitting my enemy with a hally swing he runs and I make chase and even though I don't unequip and my swing should be 'ready' for insta hit after 4 seconds of chasing, I still have to stop for 0.25 seconds before it is REALLY 'ready' due to lack of SOTR and this upsets me because ... "... that kind of scenario would help me understand what exactly is going on that is upsetting people.

Can anybody clearly state what the real fuss is all about here? What has changed recently or will change soon that has caused this big stink?

From my limited testing there are awkward built-in delays that make it almost impossible to try and cycle faster than 1.9 seconds.

I can give you a demo of 1 second hally hits--PM me if you are interested. I do it all the time with that character. The thing is, I believe it is independent of the weapon (which seems to jive with what somebody said about it being dependent on the wrestling timer). Of course this means that you would want to cycle the most powerful weapon in the class (hally, war hammer, or spear) to get the most bang for your buck. This implies fencing is weaker for cycling, but of course the spear has a very quick attack time without cycling.

[Psilo]

great post

unfortunately the staff do not care what-so-ever about anything you just wrote

all they care about is accuracy which will moot every single one of your valid points

sad but true

I wouldn't call that sad. The reason I came to UOSA is because the Bloodrock came here. The reason I like UOSA is because the devs aren't constantly implementing new 'cool' things just because someone says "I think..." or "wouldn't it be cool if?". Yeah, its cool...until you 50 different opinions of cool.

However, the dexxing topic is not a closed topic. There is evidence pointing both ways and there are some (in my opinion dangerous) assumptions being made about patch notes. Its an instance where I don't think you'll ever find a 'smoking gun' that says "yes, this is how it is". As such, my personal opinion is it should be done in the way that most closely resembles what the majority remember from T2A, as well as what is best for the shard's population/playability.

This right here.


And also, hits being held refers to the bug right now where the "timer" doesn't keep moving while the weapon is off like it's supposed to. The only difference this causes is that people have to be aware of where the "timer" is in order to know when to hit, it's actually a good thing.

[iamreallysquall]

i hope all realize that Sotr / swing state not being held is a mistake that will be fixed soon what you do have to look forward to or cry about is derricks last post here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29034&p=280785#p280785

[Blaise]

I realize that SOTR is the best 'mistake' this shard has ever made, aside from allowing me to play here.

Hopefully neither are ever corrected.

[Psilo]

I realize that SOTR is the best 'mistake' this shard has ever made, aside from allowing me to play here.

Hopefully neither are ever corrected.

Correcting "held hits" is not a big issue for pvpers, it's really for the better and it's era accurate to take it out and have it like it was.

SOTR is era accurate though, and should stay as is it's also bringing people to the shard. Sounds like the safer choice to go with, since it's probably accurate. As we have no 100% proof that pvp had "stop to hit". Nowhere in yahoo chat logs or old forums does anyone mention having to stop to hit someone they are chasing lol, this further backs up our claims of SOTR being era accurate and being the safer choice to go with.

[iamreallysquall]

I realize that SOTR is the best 'mistake' this shard has ever made, aside from allowing me to play here.

Hopefully neither are ever corrected.

Correcting "held hits" is not a big issue for pvpers, it's really for the better and it's era accurate to take it out and have it like it was.

SOTR is era accurate though, and should stay as is it's also bringing people to the shard. Sounds like the safer choice to go with, since it's probably accurate. As we have no 100% proof that pvp had "stop to hit". Nowhere in yahoo chat logs or old forums does anyone mention having to stop to hit someone they are chasing lol, this further backs up our claims of SOTR being era accurate and being the safer choice to go with.

It should be noted that while you can run and swing right now, the error is also causing player swings to be held as well, which is not supposed to happen (this is not a disputed mechanic between sources).

I talked with Derrick about this briefly today and there have been no intentional changes to combat. If anything has changed, we should expect that it will return to normal soon.