Swing on the run (dexing)

[Faust]

Rose.. please take special note to my post here...

If you think that it's possible to mimic or implement the code for insta hit with a reasonable consideration of the changes that followed suit than by all means go for it.

The original swing timer advanced no matter if your opponenet was next to you or not in the demo.

This did not change until the same day UOR hit here with this exact phrase...

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

This patch clearly states that swings now hold until the target is in range where as it did not previously just what exists inside the demo code. The patch also includes that little phrase where swings now advance upon player movement unlike it previously did before this patch. That is clearly speaking of the way that swing state advances during the combat timer. If the states did not change during movement than you get the present effect where the states cannot change until you are not moving. The combat timer ticks every quarter of a second and in order for your state to advance to the next phase you would have to be standing still. Again, if you think you can come up with something better than Batlin, Derrick, Kaivan, and me that is more logical based on the future changes go at it son... The present system was mainly Derrick's creation after the other three of us pain stakingly deciphered the original swing timer code.

The code is there just like previously stated so if you think you can come up with something better using a logical approach from beginning to end go at it.

[Mens Rea]

Everyone knows that was a remedial patch though Faust.

[Ronk]

This did not change until the same day UOR hit here with this exact phrase...

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

One key thing you left out of that Faust...two words: Mini-Update.

Consider:
- The option for studded leather tunics has been returned to the tailoring menu

By your logic...this implies that there should be a patch note prior to this where in they specify that they took studded leather tunics out of the tailoring menu.

- The failure rate on Healing has been adjusted back to its proper rate

So there is a patch note that implies healing was adjusted to an improper rate? No.


As you can see, the context of this patch is a mini update fixing things that were mistakenly broken. A major radical change like "attack on the run" would NOT have been thrown in as an after thought to a major patch. As discussed previously in this thread, this mini update was fixing something they mistakenly broke when UO:R was released.

[Roser]

The code is there just like previously stated so if you think you can come up with something better using a logical approach from beginning to end go at it.

Son, I have no problem with the swing timer code for the most part, I think it is actually very good and has been one of the best patches UOSA has ever seen. My argument has nothing to do with the code that has comes from the decompiled demo, it has to do with the more superficial evidence that goes along with the code: the patch notes, and how they are interpreted.

Speaking on interpretation, from what I can tell there is no reason the movement restriction (Wedge in the combat cycle) cant simply be placed after the ready state. If this was done then you would still need to pause before swinging, but your swing would constantly be in a charging state and would therefore be less tedious when trying fight someone.

I am assisting in the battle to get a nuisance in the melee combat mechanics fixed, which most people agree is not accurate. I have no desire to attempt to come up with a new combat system, son.

[Panthor the Hated]

So you don't like the interpretation of patch notes and instead decide to make up a "solution" out of whole cloth?

[ClowN]

I have not played here or posted for quite a while, but i saw this thread and had to post.

SOTR should be possible. The current state of combat mechanics has basically created a gimped, slow paced PvP style that never really existed in uo t2a. Here dexxers are worthless without vanqs, TONS of potions, and high end armor. during t2a, a 6xGM dexxer in all GM made gear was a threat to just about anyone. Here they cant even compete without 20k+ worth of gear and GM resist. If this was fixed i would probably start playing again. Frankly i just got tired of building chars that i played very effectively in t2a, only to have them later get ruined with patches based on old misinterpreted patch notes.

I have no evidence to contribute. But everyone who actually played t2a era damn well knows this isnt how it was.

[Roser]

So you don't like the interpretation of patch notes and instead decide to make up a "solution" out of whole cloth?

I don't understand your interpretation of my interpretation of Faust's interpretation of my previous interpretation... eh?

What do you mean by Whole Cloth?

[Ronk]

I have not played here or posted for quite a while, but i saw this thread and had to post.

SOTR should be possible. The current state of combat mechanics has basically created a gimped, slow paced PvP style that never really existed in uo t2a. Here dexxers are worthless without vanqs, TONS of potions, and high end armor. during t2a, a 6xGM dexxer in all GM made gear was a threat to just about anyone. Here they cant even compete without 20k+ worth of gear and GM resist. If this was fixed i would probably start playing again. Frankly i just got tired of building chars that i played very effectively in t2a, only to have them later get ruined with patches based on old misinterpreted patch notes.

I have no evidence to contribute. But everyone who actually played t2a era damn well knows this isnt how it was.

Very well said.

[Faust]

As you can see, the context of this patch is a mini update fixing things that were mistakenly broken. A major radical change like "attack on the run" would NOT have been thrown in as an after thought to a major patch. As discussed previously in this thread, this mini update was fixing something they mistakenly broke when UO:R was released.

I am quite aware that this was a mini-update but it still came the same day as the UOR publish... Do you realize how much of a difference the UOR version(when you exclude this mini-update) resembles the demo swing timer? The previous saved code for the timer before insta hit was more than likely re-established and re-implemented(including the dex tweak for low dex characters) with UOR since they were essentially just reverting back to it. When UOR hit there would have been a substantial increase to the amount of players finally getting a feel for the new code. Dodging swings in a new age where high speed internet was the norm would have been a major issue with players and this mini-update would have went in after all the complaining that took place after UOR hit. Having swings hold until making contact or missing would have obviously resolved this issue.

Speaking on interpretation, from what I can tell there is no reason the movement restriction (Wedge in the combat cycle) cant simply be placed after the ready state. If this was done then you would still need to pause before swinging, but your swing would constantly be in a charging state and would therefore be less tedious when trying fight someone.

How do you not get it?

Ultima Online timers tick every 0.25s. The CombatHeartBeat() function kicks every tick when your character is in combat. This particular function does numerous things and validations that determines your swing state. The timer or SwingCounter is increased and several validations take place along with the calling of the AdvanceSwingState() function that handles your swing states. There are three known states in the original code that handles the animation and damage at specific intervals. The swing state does not ever get decreased and can only move forward(excluding archery). If swings didn't hold until the UOR mini update patch than the same would have held true during t2a. The additional comment clearly mentions swing advancement now continues even when your character is moving and you would no longer have to stop briefly in order to swing...

[Panthor the Hated]

So you don't like the interpretation of patch notes and instead decide to make up a "solution" out of whole cloth?

I don't understand your interpretation of my interpretation of Faust's interpretation of my previous interpretation... eh?

What do you mean by Whole Cloth?

What do you think I mean? You decided to make a new mechanic on UOSA without evidence that its accurate whilst criticizing faust for the same thing.

[Rhis]

I definitely agree with those who are saying that the patch note quoted above is a fix to a bug that went in with the UO:R publish. After thinking about it for a while, my recollection is that in addition to the changes regarding dex making hits occur earlier in the animation, a bug was introduced that left combat very similar to how it is here --- dexers had to stop moving before the swing timer would count down. Basically they were gimped for a few hours in a patch where they expected to receive a buff, necessitating the mini-publishes a few hours later.

It really makes sense... If this was an actual change to combat mechanics, i.e. swing on the run did not exist previously, it would have gone into the main publish. Both mini publishes on the day of the UO:R publish were a direct response to bugs introduced that day.

[Ronk]

I am quite aware that this was a mini-update but it still came the same day as the UOR publish... Do you realize how much of a difference the UOR version(when you exclude this mini-update) resembles the demo swing timer? The previous saved code for the timer before insta hit was more than likely re-established and re-implemented(including the dex tweak for low dex characters) with UOR since they were essentially just reverting back to it. When UOR hit there would have been a substantial increase to the amount of players finally getting a feel for the new code. Dodging swings in a new age where high speed internet was the norm would have been a major issue with players and this mini-update would have went in after all the complaining that took place after UOR hit. Having swings hold until making contact or missing would have obviously resolved this issue.
.

Previous demo...very old pre-T2A code. Okay.
'more than likely'...so you are guessing. Okay.
'would have been'...uh huh, perhaps, and perhaps there would have been magical unicorns flying around too.
I think rose, or someone, showed that high speed internet isn't the issue as some people hypothesized.
'would have'...

All I see is a lot of guesses. What im curious about is whether you still believe connection speed (and computer speed apparently) is the only reason that dexing here is so much different than it was during T2A. Or if you feel there is something else wrong.

[Kaivan]

This thread is running around in circles now. No new information is being brought to the table at this time. So, in order to get this discussion to go in the right direction, it's appropriate to cover a few base facts.

First, while the mini-patch does contain 6 bug fixes that can be directly traced to the UOR publish, the rest of the changes are related to bug fixes or mechanic changes for previously introduced mechanics, some of which are very old.

Second, because the above patch is not fully a bug fixing patch directly related to UOR alone, we cannot hypothesize that these issues were introduced strictly with UOR. This is also true for other non-bug changes in the patch as well.

Third, regardless of whether the patch is or isn't a bug fix for swinging while moving, the line item is directly consistent with the demo on the fact that your swing is not held. Thus, our only debate is about whether your swing will advance while moving, which produces very similar results if your swing is not held until you are in range (I'll ask Derrick when I speak with him next regarding pulling the movement restriction on test for people to see what I mean).

Fourth, the test for connection speed and its effects on your swings has several issues. The first is related to the -ping command which does not give you a consistent ping result. For a consistent result, use the command line ping command (ping login.uosecondage.com). Second, a steady ping of 220 (presuming the ping was even that high) is vastly different from a typical 56k connection that had an inconsistent ping that typically varied between 300 and 400, with an idealistic maximum of around 250 ping,. These issues need to be properly addressed if any validity is to be given to the test (Note: even if swinging on the move were put in and your ping was 2, the way the test was conducted would produce very similar results).

Finally, the line item was not a bug fix introduced to combat the fact that players could "dodge" swings from lower dexterity characters - a function re-introduced with UOR. This is indicated to be true from a UO Powergamers quote earlier in this thread talking about the fact that archery still suffered from the issue of players outrunning their shots in 2001. Additionally, had the line item been related to that, UOR and later (none of which address the issue of holding a swing) would have all suffered from the same issue of not holding your swing. However, this is not the case.

[Ronk]

Second, because the above patch is not fully a bug fixing patch directly related to UOR alone, we cannot hypothesize that these issues were introduced strictly with UOR. This is also true for other non-bug changes in the patch as well.

Unless I misread/misunderstood, the minipatch came out right on the heels of the UOR patch. As a software developer, I can say that this means these bugs were detected last minute once UO:R went live or perhaps shortly before it went live.

For some reason, the UOR patch caused issues and they had to throw out the mini-patch in an effort to quick fix it and make the game playable and/or prevent some bug. Now, obviously, we could probably all interpret what these reasons were in different ways and never know for sure.

Bottom line though is that the minipatch was a direct result of the UOR patch and the speed at which it came out means it broke/messed up something big that needed fixed...fast. Otherwise, much more testing and time would have happened before the patch.

Third, regardless of whether the patch is or isn't a bug fix for swinging while moving, the line item is directly consistent with the demo on the fact that your swing is not held. Thus, our only debate is about whether your swing will advance while moving, which produces very similar results if your swing is not held until you are in range (I'll ask Derrick when I speak with him next regarding pulling the movement restriction on test for people to see what I mean).

I was trying to read back and understand this. Is the following correct?

You are stating that the two valid options are:
1. Swing timer advances while moving but if you aren't next to a person when it expires you won't hit them and the timer starts over. (Not the way it is)
or
2. Must be standing still to advance your swing timer but once its ready you get an 'instant' hit when you get near a valid target (the way it is now)

If I am incorrect in either of these statements, could you please help me clear it up?

[Roser]

It really makes sense... If this was an actual change to combat mechanics, i.e. swing on the run did not exist previously, it would have gone into the main publish. Both mini publishes on the day of the UO:R publish were a direct response to bugs introduced that day.

Although it is hard to say for sure if this is factual, I think it is indeed logical.

I really think that this mini patch note should be dismissed as evidence toward era accuracy. There are far to many uncertainties surrounding it, half of it is a direct contradiction to what we have on UOSA now (holding swings), its for a different era of UO, and in my opinion, it does more harm then good.

Kaivan, I did a secondary test at way higher ping did you happen to check that one out? It's a little better then the first test, although I am still using the in game ping meter. Note that the video shows a fairly laggy dexer not being able to hit a standing target at all.

It would be greatly appreciated if we can lift the movement restriction on test, I think then this discussion can move forward for real after testing.

To the cat: Meow.