Swing on the run (dexing)

[Faust]

Dexers are easy as hell to kill. I am saying Panthor that. Archery at a 12 second stand still is stupid. You used to be able to fire while moving even however you cannot do that. I am not saying you would hit anything but you could fire while moving even with archery. The same thing goes for weapon melee skills. you could swing while moving.

There is no twelve second stand still required to shoot any ranged weapon.

Also, you can run and swing here in a sense... there is a brief pause of 0.25s required in order to finalize that swing though. People averaged 200-300+ ping back in the day on dial up modems. That is a latency of .20-.30 seconds between packets well in the range of making it appear as if you didn't have to stop/pause briefly during movement. I have a good feeling you, along with several others here, don't understand the swing mechanics of the era.

[Ronk]

That is a latency of .20-.30 seconds between packets well in the range of making it appear as if you didn't have to stop/pause briefly during movement.

Do you have patch notes or proof of this or is it just your opinion/guess? As I understood it, this was just one guess of what could possibly be the cause of people remembering wrong and it has never been proven.

[Faust]

What do you think ping is Ronk? Ping is the communication time between your location and the server location. When you have an average of 50 ping(using my ping to uosa for example) equates to a 0.05s delay when communicating with a sever.

Pinging uosecondage.com [64.34.215.106] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 64.34.215.106: bytes=32 time=58ms TTL=111
Reply from 64.34.215.106: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=111
Reply from 64.34.215.106: bytes=32 time=52ms TTL=111
Reply from 64.34.215.106: bytes=32 time=42ms TTL=111

Ping statistics for 64.34.215.106:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 42ms, Maximum = 58ms, Average = 49ms

Average of 49 mili-seconds for me.

How about we throw the gears back a decade ago when ping was an average of 200-300ms on dial up modems for everyone... that is instead a 0.2-0.3s delay between the communication with you and the server. The packets in game are sent/received in this fashion and this even includes movement. Movement packets transfering at such a latency compared to a speed of 50 miliseconds is actually a lot in terms of communication. A delay of that magnitude is quite sufficient enough to snuff out that small quarter of a second pause time in order to swing a weapon when chasing someone.

Would be very interesting if Derrick would set up an experiment adding artificial packet loss producing 200-300 ping to see how different this situation turns out for people in game.

[marmalade]

There's nothing wrong with dexxers at all. If you stocked and played a dexxer well, you could probably beat every tank mage on the shard.

[Roser]

Would be very interesting if Derrick would set up an experiment adding artificial packet loss producing 200-300 ping to see how different this situation turns out for people in game.

I just tested SOTR at 235 ping.... Here are the results.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29899

[iamreallysquall]

Dexers are easy as hell to kill. I am saying Panthor that. Archery at a 12 second stand still is stupid. You used to be able to fire while moving even however you cannot do that. I am not saying you would hit anything but you could fire while moving even with archery. The same thing goes for weapon melee skills. you could swing while moving.

archery is not useless i have got tons of solo kills on my stealth archer, using tactical skills and understanding how the timers work on archery for each type of bow and the range, and i wasn't killing no 50 50 noobs either i am talking 100 str targets wearing armor or tank mages. Dexers are easy as hell to kill 1v1? doubt it if they have 40 +ar your hally hardly hits them for anything even high end hally if they have resist and wrestle they at least stand a fair chance at getting away i will say that and i seen dexers in the field 3v3 4v4 be a total hasel basically taking a tank mage out of the fight as they have to kite them around and cant stop to cast.

[Matty]

Dexers are easy as hell to kill. I am saying Panthor that. Archery at a 12 second stand still is stupid. You used to be able to fire while moving even however you cannot do that. I am not saying you would hit anything but you could fire while moving even with archery. The same thing goes for weapon melee skills. you could swing while moving.

archery is not useless i have got tons of solo kills on my stealth archer, using tactical skills and understanding how the timers work on archery for each type of bow and the range, and i wasn't killing no 50 50 noobs either i am talking 100 str targets wearing armor or tank mages. Dexers are easy as hell to kill 1v1? doubt it if they have 40 +ar your hally hardly hits them for anything even high end hally if they have resist and wrestle they at least stand a fair chance at getting away i will say that and i seen dexers in the field 3v3 4v4 be a total hasel basically taking a tank mage out of the fight as they have to kite them around and cant stop to cast.

squall show up anywhere on the shard and try to kill me. i drop dexers w/ +25 vanqs and invul armor frequently who know what they're doing. hallies hit right through that armor on here. dexing is broken.

[iamreallysquall]

Dexers are easy as hell to kill. I am saying Panthor that. Archery at a 12 second stand still is stupid. You used to be able to fire while moving even however you cannot do that. I am not saying you would hit anything but you could fire while moving even with archery. The same thing goes for weapon melee skills. you could swing while moving.

archery is not useless i have got tons of solo kills on my stealth archer, using tactical skills and understanding how the timers work on archery for each type of bow and the range, and i wasn't killing no 50 50 noobs either i am talking 100 str targets wearing armor or tank mages. Dexers are easy as hell to kill 1v1? doubt it if they have 40 +ar your hally hardly hits them for anything even high end hally if they have resist and wrestle they at least stand a fair chance at getting away i will say that and i seen dexers in the field 3v3 4v4 be a total hasel basically taking a tank mage out of the fight as they have to kite them around and cant stop to cast.

squall show up anywhere on the shard and try to kill me. i drop dexers w/ +25 vanqs and invul armor frequently who know what they're doing. hallies hit right through that armor on here. dexing is broken.

i am not saying you cant kill a dexer at all but AR say 43-51 does make hallys hit for a lot less then a 0-4 AR tankmage thats just math sorry its fact and i dont see anyone providing evidence thats it 'broken'. This is coming from i kill dexers as well standpoint but for you to say that hally hits right through armor is nuts go on test and hit a naked character 50 times with gm hally then put on gm armor or invul or fort and notice the damage difference on average.

[Ronk]

Faust: I am aware what ping is. And I am aware of the hypothesis that bad latency is why dexxers were viable in T2A. My question is whether you have proof of this or whether you are still just stating your theory. It sounds like Rose tried it out but I can't see the results until after work.

If latency did cause such a dramatic shift in the way PVP of the era works, then it may be worth opening a new thread to discuss that. While I would never seriously suggest cuasing everyone to lag to make it era accurate, it probably is worth discussing whether move speed and/or combat speeds should be tweaked to simulate what it was like in T2A or whether they should be left to just be unbalanced mechanics.

As for the bickering that followed about who can kill who. I think people keep confusing survivability with viability. Just because you can get away on a dexxer doesn't mean they are balanced. The issue is that a dexxer has little chance of killing anyone when all things are more or less even.

[iamreallysquall]

Faust: I am aware what ping is. And I am aware of the hypothesis that bad latency is why dexxers were viable in T2A. My question is whether you have proof of this or whether you are still just stating your theory. It sounds like Rose tried it out but I can't see the results until after work.

If latency did cause such a dramatic shift in the way PVP of the era works, then it may be worth opening a new thread to discuss that. While I would never seriously suggest cuasing everyone to lag to make it era accurate, it probably is worth discussing whether move speed and/or combat speeds should be tweaked to simulate what it was like in T2A or whether they should be left to just be unbalanced mechanics.

As for the bickering that followed about who can kill who. I think people keep confusing survivability with viability. Just because you can get away on a dexxer doesn't mean they are balanced. The issue is that a dexxer has little chance of killing anyone when all things are more or less even.

i don't entirely agree matty made them sound like they are paper thin despite high ar , you guys all make them out to be totally useless and they aren't.

[Ronk]

i don't entirely agree matty made them sound like they are paper thin despite high ar , you guys all make them out to be totally useless any they aren't.

The proof is in the numbers. Most pure dexxers has moved on to other shards because their templates are not viable here. If dexxing was viable then the shard would have a more era accurate mix of tanks and dexxers. Yeah, some dexxers against some targets can pull it off, I think most people are looking in general at everyone overall.

[marmalade]

i don't entirely agree matty made them sound like they are paper thin despite high ar , you guys all make them out to be totally useless any they aren't.

The proof is in the numbers. Most pure dexxers has moved on to other shards because their templates are not viable here. If dexxing was viable then the shard would have a more era accurate mix of tanks and dexxers. Yeah, some dexxers against some targets can pull it off, I think most people are looking in general at everyone overall.

I'm sorry, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with dexxers here. Considering you can stock yourself with charged weapons, explosion pot, invis/teleport/reflect items and heal wands, any dexxer can become potentially unkillable with insane DPS.

If you run around with GM weapons and crappy stock, then of course the character seems less viable. Dexxers are far more item based than mages are, and they have to be played properly. Calling a poison vanq wielding, explosion pot throwing wand/jewelery using dexxer not viable is just silly though.

[Faust]

The results Rose produced is only half of the way it would have been back then.

Load it up on a machine with a 166mhz processor and 16mb RAM with the same ping and my argument will concede.

[Roser]

Dude I will throttle my pig to 800 if u need.... I'm still not gonna be able to hit on the run.

So long as the right mouse button is held down and nothing physically stops my character in his tracks, its not going to work.

[Roser]

Ok so I did another test at higher ping (300-400), this time I did a little more dancing around the target.

You will also notice the only time I hit the target was when I intentionally stopped beside it (about had way thought the video)

Hojo Bachinski_6-20_17.25-1.rpv

Edit: Downloadable here > viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29899
Not the first download, but I added another one a few posts down.