Swing on the run (dexing)

[Mens Rea]

At this point, if you don't want to believe that the changes exist with the intent of era accuracy, then that's you're prerogative. However, as with all changes on UOSA, any change that has happened, or will happen to combat mechanics must come from era evidence; none of which has been provided in this thread.

This is the most fired up I've ever seen Kaivan. Stop harassing him.

[Ronk]

In regards to the demo code from the original T2A disk...I have hte original T2A disk. It was like 6-7 bucks as a special price for people already playing if I recall correctly. And as with just about any MMORPG, as soon as you get the T2A disk you begin updates.

--For those interested...otherwise skip to next paragraph--
For those who are not aware, when a game is in development it gets to a point where it 'goes gold'. This is typically because its burned to a gold CD. When a game goes gold it gets put on the CD and shipped to a plant to be replicated. Between the time a game 'goes gold' and actually launches/becomse available, developers continue to fix bugs, alter the code, and develop the game. Its a bit like floating a check.

So while the demo may of been actual source when the game went gold. There were, as always mega patches the day of the T2A release. This is why after installing T2A everyone immediately had to begin patching. Now, I imagine there are patch notes for this but given the volume of changes those initial patch notes are going to be very vague and/or incomplete. Theres is no way to know for sure what all was in the initial patch notes. As with any patch notes, you have to take them with a grain of salt. When I submit code at work, I don't write uber detailed patch notes, I tend to leave a lot out and just hit big points that I can remember.

In the end, what this means is that the T2A demo may be a 'T2A demo', but it is more accurately a pre-t2a demo. And between the time a game goes gold and a game is released there can be huge and undocumented changes.

This post is just my general experience as a software developer (of the non-game variety) and a complete computer geek who has followed the development of several MMORPG's post UO. In my professional opinion, I believe it is a mistake to treat the demo and/or patch notes as the word of god and to completely discount the memories and experiences of people.

In my opinion, all data, patch notes, old code, memories, experiences, and discussions should be examined and, as always, taken with a grain of salt. All should be used to mold the game to the memory of what was T2A. Attempting to replicate from patch notes alone is futile and you'll never get there.

[Faust]

In my opinion, all data, patch notes, old code, memories, experiences, and discussions should be examined and, as always, taken with a grain of salt. All should be used to mold the game to the memory of what was T2A. Attempting to replicate from patch notes alone is futile and you'll never get there.

This exactly how the demo is used here since it's pre dated code just right before t2a was released. The point in the demo is to use it as a starting place and go from there trying to pin point the changes that took place using all different sources. That is what was done for the swing timer changes that is being discussed here and wish most people could understand it like you Ronk.

For those that still can't quite grasp it.. here is a repeated portion of Kaivan's response.

gives us the ability to use the demo as a starting point and map any changes that went forward with very good results

The demo is the foundation aka starting place... the rest of the work is mapped out through patch notes and various other sources for the end result.

Building something is much easier when there is a foundation...

[Ronk]

The demo is the foundation aka starting place... the rest of the work is mapped out through patch notes and various other sources for the end result.

Building something is much easier when there is a foundation...

True, but we (we being the shard in general) seem to just use patch notes. I really don't see other sources used, unless you count stratics pages (whos info is probably accurate but there is no guarantee as it was not always kept up to date).

I don't think you will get to the true T2A experience on patch notes and stratics alone. There are too many holes, too many questions, and the patch notes are not documented in depth and thoroughly enough to make an accurate recreation.

I guess this is why I was disappointed that Kai does not consider first hand experiences as valid proof. I can certainly agree with disregarding the first hand experiences of one or two people but when we have a large number of people all remembering the same thing, I believe it says something.

To say, in essence, that 'we understand that 95% of people think this is wrong but we need a patch note or stratics page as prove or we won't change it'...well...that just seems faulty to me. The whole 'keys locked down on the door step' is another similar debate. It seems most people remember it one way but its implemented in another way here.

[riant]

For those who are interested, the current mechanics are based off two pieces of information. The first is the decompiling of the demo code surrounding swing timers located here. The second is a UOR patch note that was part of a series of mini-patches released on the same day as UOR. The relevant line item is as follows:

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

I urge anyone who is interested in why our current mechanics are currently this way to read the two pieces of information. It's pretty important to understand these things in some level of detail in order to understand why things are set up the way they are on UOSA.

As a software programmer and someone who has a BA in English Literature I have to say that patch note annoys the hell out of me. It's that pesky "Thus" preceding the last sentence. The use of the word "thus" usually implies a restating of logic already present. My concern is that we are putting all our eggs in that last sentence's basket. I think it's fair to say that the inferences are NOT strong in the first two sentences, and only in the last, but when I see the word "thus", I'm inferring that the last sentence is just a reiteration of the first two, so there's something fishy there.

Here's my assessment: The first sentence means "you don't start your swing cycle by attacking a player from a distance with a weapon equipped". The second sentence means "your cycle happens while your moving". The last sentence just spells out the point of the patch: Namely that "ticks" are now "real time" with a weapon cycle. If I was learning PvP during UO:R I would fully expect someone to say to me "Hey, it used to be that you would need to stop moving for your combat timer, but now that's a thing of the past." It's just a poorly worded sentence. I know the counter-argument to that is we can't assume it's poorly worded, but we can. It was the concluding sentence. Something that informative would have been the first, and perhaps, only sentence if that was the point of the patch.

[Faust]

The last sentence just spells out the point of the patch: Namely that "ticks" are now "real time" with a weapon cycle.

Weapons are still calculated using ticks in modern UO.

I am not quite sure what you are getting at with your assessment but it seems like you may not fully understand the way the swing timer works. There are two variables dubbed "SwingCounter" and "SwingState" by Batlin from the decompilation process of the original swing timer. "SwingCounter" is the actual time in ticks that tracks where your weapon delay sets. However, the "SwingState" is the variable that tracks where you are at with your swing. The prep time, animation, and the damage is assessed through the swing states. This is actually the variable that does not get increased when your character is moving around here. The swing counter continues ticking forward even when the character is moving around. This is why when you hit the last swing state(damage) you must stop for a total of one tick for it to be processed. You can run around forever elapsing your weapon delay but you must stop very briefly for one tick in order for the state to progress forward for the damage if your weapon is ready to swing.

Here is the patch note once more...

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

The demo does not hold a swing if the target is not in range.. so it's suggestive that it did not before this patch since it clearly states a palyer holds a swing now until the target is with in range of a swing/shot. The actual "SwingCounter" not ticking forward when moving around is quite absurd in reality, and that is the reason the staff and most people who understand the original swing timer believes the advancement portion of the patch note refers to the SwingState variable of the code instead of the SwingCounter when it comes to the movement restriction on the delay.

[Psilo]

For those who are interested, the current mechanics are based off two pieces of information. The first is the decompiling of the demo code surrounding swing timers located here. The second is a UOR patch note that was part of a series of mini-patches released on the same day as UOR. The relevant line item is as follows:

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.

I urge anyone who is interested in why our current mechanics are currently this way to read the two pieces of information. It's pretty important to understand these things in some level of detail in order to understand why things are set up the way they are on UOSA.

As a software programmer and someone who has a BA in English Literature I have to say that patch note annoys the hell out of me. It's that pesky "Thus" preceding the last sentence. The use of the word "thus" usually implies a restating of logic already present. My concern is that we are putting all our eggs in that last sentence's basket. I think it's fair to say that the inferences are NOT strong in the first two sentences, and only in the last, but when I see the word "thus", I'm inferring that the last sentence is just a reiteration of the first two, so there's something fishy there.

Here's my assessment: The first sentence means "you don't start your swing cycle by attacking a player from a distance with a weapon equipped". The second sentence means "your cycle happens while your moving". The last sentence just spells out the point of the patch: Namely that "ticks" are now "real time" with a weapon cycle. If I was learning PvP during UO:R I would fully expect someone to say to me "Hey, it used to be that you would need to stop moving for your combat timer, but now that's a thing of the past." It's just a poorly worded sentence. I know the counter-argument to that is we can't assume it's poorly worded, but we can. It was the concluding sentence. Something that informative would have been the first, and perhaps, only sentence if that was the point of the patch.

"In matters of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth as much as the humble reasoning of a single individual."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)


Riant is spot on, I see what he means.

[Kasimir]

In the context of the above question, UOSA really only has to entertain two possibilities. Either:

The movement restriction was implemented after November 23, 1999.
The movement restriction was implemented before November 23, 1999.

Source: http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_5#Hitting_and_Dexterity

Hitting and Dexterity {as of April 27, 2000}
Currently, melee weapons check for whether a hit is successful or not in the beginning of the swing animation. This will now be scaled based on dexterity. The higher your dexterity, the earlier in your swing you hit. At very low dexterities, you will not hit until the end of your swing.

Source: http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_5#Updates

Publish 5
Update 1
On April 28, 2000, the following was published:
....
Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range. Additionally, the timer that determines melee weapon swing times (combat timer) will now advance as the player is moving. Thus, melee weapon users will no longer be required to stop moving before swinging.
....

Am I correct in understanding that this change definitely occurred after the target date of emulation for which UOSA staff aims?
If so, then as the staff policy stands, this feature cannot and will not be implemented. Is policy change a valid discussion for this thread (or even likely)?

-K

[tanmits]

The demo does not hold a swing if the target is not in range.. so it's suggestive that it did not before this patch since it clearly states a palyer holds a swing now until the target is with in range of a swing/shot. The actual "SwingCounter" not ticking forward when moving around is quite absurd in reality, and that is the reason the staff and most people who understand the original swing timer believes the advancement portion of the patch note refers to the SwingState variable of the code instead of the SwingCounter when it comes to the movement restriction on the delay.

Why then can we hold our swings at all here? You couldn't in the demo and the newer patch note indicated that prior to that swings weren't held. Sorry if I missed the reasoning somewhere in the previous 11 pages!

[Kaivan]

The demo does not hold a swing if the target is not in range.. so it's suggestive that it did not before this patch since it clearly states a palyer holds a swing now until the target is with in range of a swing/shot. The actual "SwingCounter" not ticking forward when moving around is quite absurd in reality, and that is the reason the staff and most people who understand the original swing timer believes the advancement portion of the patch note refers to the SwingState variable of the code instead of the SwingCounter when it comes to the movement restriction on the delay.

Why then can we hold our swings at all here? You couldn't in the demo and the newer patch note indicated that prior to that swings weren't held. Sorry if I missed the reasoning somewhere in the previous 11 pages!

Swings here aren't actually held. They just don't advance when you're moving. Provided that you're standing still, your combat timer will advance as it would in the demo, and since swings aren't held, your swing will miss because you are out of range.

[Roser]

Equipping a weapon now causes a short "prep time" before you can start swinging.

I know we have a "prep time" for archery here, but how exactly is this incorporated into the swing mechanics on UOSA right now?

[Faust]

Am I correct in understanding that this change definitely occurred after the target date of emulation for which UOSA staff aims?

This particular patch is a mini-update for the UOR publish from the very same day meanings it's way ahead of our time frame for a cutoff date.

I'm sure you can imagine the massive amount of griping and complaining when they pretty much reverted back to the old style of pre-t2a combat where you could dodge a swing in motion and completely waste it when UOR went live during the era where broadband become widely common. Swing timer was changed relatively quickly in a mini-uor update to where they would save until fully finished with a hit or miss after the large publish.

[Matty]

Am I correct in understanding that this change definitely occurred after the target date of emulation for which UOSA staff aims?

This particular patch is a mini-update for the UOR publish from the very same day meanings it's way ahead of our time frame for a cutoff date.

I'm sure you can imagine the massive amount of griping and complaining when they pretty much reverted back to the old style of pre-t2a combat where you could dodge a swing in motion and completely waste it when UOR went live during the era where broadband become widely common. Swing timer was changed relatively quickly in a mini-uor update to where they would save until fully finished with a hit or miss after the large publish.

huh?

[Ronk]

Am I correct in understanding that this change definitely occurred after the target date of emulation for which UOSA staff aims?

This particular patch is a mini-update for the UOR publish from the very same day meanings it's way ahead of our time frame for a cutoff date.

I'm sure you can imagine the massive amount of griping and complaining when they pretty much reverted back to the old style of pre-t2a combat where you could dodge a swing in motion and completely waste it when UOR went live during the era where broadband become widely common. Swing timer was changed relatively quickly in a mini-uor update to where they would save until fully finished with a hit or miss after the large publish.

huh?

I think he is trying to explain his theory as to why the mini-patch happened. Tho if that is the case, its no different from from the theory that the minipatch was 'fixing' something they mistakenly broke and took out.

This whole shot on run vs saving shots vs everything still confuses the hell out of me. I may need to reread some of the posts in here cause the impression im left with is that we still aren't era accurate but its close enough and/or the best we can do given the info. O_o

On a side note, I don't really remember very many hally mages in T2A. Granted most people were noobs that probalby didn't know what a hally mage was and everyone seems to claim that T2A was the hally mage era. I do remember hte full plate mages prior to meditiation ^_^

[Panthor the Hated]

The fact that 10 years down the line people have discovered a certain template and play style are best for a given system is exactly what everyone should expect. Unlike UOSA, the real t2a era had a preceding era that was almost entirely different in many ways and the mechanics continued to change drastically as time went on without a specific end point.

The existence of a dominant template does not imply inaccuracy of any mechanics.

We needz documentation