Detect Hidden and Invis Spell

[Ronk]

I am seeking the experts here. For some reason I remember being able to reveal someone who used the invisible spell if you targeted detect hidden exactly on the spot they hid, even if you had 0 detect.

I can't remember well enough to say for sure whether this was a T2A thing or something I simply remember from custom shards.

Possible reason:
Detect hidden is based on their hide check, I believe. So if a mage with 0 hiding casts invis his hiding is zero and so zero detect should reveal him?

Anyone know anything? I do know i tried 2-3 times to reveal an invis mage today with no luck.

[Xukluk Tuguznal]

Nah, It was like that on production shards.. I don't recall what era though or if it was always like that.

[Derrick]

I'm not sure what to say on this, I don't recall, but I did review the code and there is currently no change of detecting anything with < 10 skill in detect hidden. Just on the face, this doesn't seem correct to me. If anyone else has any info of recollection on this please share.

[DrFaustus]

I'm not sure what to say on this, I don't recall, but I did review the code and there is currently no change of detecting anything with < 10 skill in detect hidden. Just on the face, this doesn't seem correct to me. If anyone else has any info of recollection on this please share.

Except in houses, right?

Sorry I'm noob.

[Ronk]

I'm not sure what to say on this, I don't recall, but I did review the code and there is currently no change of detecting anything with < 10 skill in detect hidden. Just on the face, this doesn't seem correct to me. If anyone else has any info of recollection on this please share.

Except in houses, right?

Sorry I'm noob.

Right, you can always detect 100% in a house you own or are friended to. Hence why I always have detect hidden bound, but I also seem to recall revealing those pesky invis mages/invis item users who tried to avoid fights.

[Ronk]

Some things i found scanning the patch notes...
[/quote]
9/16/98: Detect hidden is now difficulty-based. You learn faster from detecting better hiders.

9/16/98:
Detect hidden changes:

* Radius of detection based on your skill level in it. The radius you can detect hidden in will now increase based on your skill, up to almost the full screen for a grandmaster.
* Better hiders will be harder to find than poor ones.
* Chance of detecting based on checking your skill vs the hidden person's hide skill. The better you are at the detect hidden skill, the better you will be at finding even the better hiders. You can expect to be totally unable to find a grandmaster hider if you are just a neophyte at the skill.
* A "distance" effect making it harder to detect people farther from the center of your search area. The farther the hidden person is from the center of your search area, the harder it is to find them.
[/quote]
Here we see detect is directly related to the hide skill. Therefore, from this we can assume that mage casting invis or a warrior using an invis item with 0 hiding would be very easy to detect. Further, we realize that the further away from the actual person you click, the harder.

So the question remains...can 0 detect reveal 0 hide if you target their location exactly?

Server Publish Mar 9 2000
Detect hidden shortened to a 1 sec delay...

I am not sure when T2A ended but I found this...

[Derrick]

Server Publish Mar 9 2000
Detect hidden shortened to a 1 sec delay...

I am not sure when T2A ended but I found this...

Ended April 2000, we've pretty much throw out anything that went in in March as well, like wrestle-stun/disarm

Good finds on the others, everything there is accurate but still doesn't really indicate and answer to the original question sadly.

[Ronk]

Yeah, I am scanning later patch notes and noticed this...

This is from well past AoS
# Reveal uses magery and detect hidden vs. hide and stealth
# Reveal always reveals vs. invisibility spell
# Tracking players uses tracking and detect hidden and random (1 to 20) vs. hiding and stealth

Obviously useless but its related so I figured id throw it out.

Ghosts detect hidden will no longer reveal a stealthed player.

This one just made me lol.

This is from: Publish 15 Updates and Bug Fixes Jan 10 2002
*Players who successfully use their hiding skill while under the effects of an invisibility spell will no longer be revealed when the invisibility timer expires.

Interesting. Seems to imply that in T2A if you hid once you cast invis that you'd still reveal when it wore off.

Dressing a player-vendor with an invisibility item will not activate the item (the vendor will not become invisible nor will any charges be used).

Another LOL

Publish 43 Oct 17 2006
Tageted Detect Hidden has been changed as follows:
* The targeted detect hidden chance has been slightly reduced against hidden players and creatures.
* The targeted detect hidden range penalty has been slightly reduced (less of a drop in the chance to detect a hidden mobile as you get further from the tile you targeted with detect hidden)
* Players without the hiding skill using the invisibility spell now has some chance to resist targeted detect hidden.
* Monsters using targeted detect hidden have less of a chance to detect hidden players if the monster has less than 100 detect hidden skill. At 100 detect hidden skill the chance remains the same.

This could be a big clue. It seems to imply that prior to this patch that a player with no hiding who used the invis spell had no chance to resist a targeted detect hidden. Its fairly specific in saying a targeted detect hidden, implying you must know where they are.

[Derrick]

It's true currently that invised players can always be revealed by >10 reveal

Good finds. I fixed the reveal after invis then hide bug here a few months ago

Anyone try the invis jewel on a player vendor yet?

[Kaivan]

This is a subject that I had some experience with on OSI. While the strategy was one that I used after UOR came out, a common strategy that I used was to use detecting hidden on my PvP thief against people who used the invisibility spell. The chance to detect was 50%, and was extremely successful during UOR due to the 1 second skill delay. I also used this tactic to reveal players who passed through public moongates after the introduction of the gate system and the auto-invis when passing through a gate.

Again, this is a tactic that I picked up during UOR as a PvP tactic when Detect Hidden became much more useful. I definitely did not invent the strategy, and its certain that I was not the first person to utilize the strategy. However, I can say with 100% confidence that this was a valid tactic during UOR that I employed on several occasions.

Here is my take on how this applies to Detecting Hidden during T2A: Since there is very little to no information regarding how Detecting Hidden works, we must use player experience to determine how this skill played out. Along those lines, regardless of the fact that the information that I described above is for a time outside of the purview of this server, there were no changes to Detecting Hidden between T2A and early UOR - aside from the skill delay decrease. Thus, it is extremely likely that the Detecting Hidden operated in the same manner during both time frames. In turn, that gives a good deal of credit to the above information with regard to how Detecting Hidden most likely worked during T2A.

[Ronk]

This is a subject that I had some experience with on OSI. While the strategy was one that I used after UOR came out, a common strategy that I used was to use detecting hidden on my PvP thief against people who used the invisibility spell. The chance to detect was 50%, and was extremely successful during UOR due to the 1 second skill delay. I also used this tactic to reveal players who passed through public moongates after the introduction of the gate system and the auto-invis when passing through a gate.

Again, this is a tactic that I picked up during UOR as a PvP tactic when Detect Hidden became much more useful. I definitely did not invent the strategy, and its certain that I was not the first person to utilize the strategy. However, I can say with 100% confidence that this was a valid tactic during UOR that I employed on several occasions.

Here is my take on how this applies to Detecting Hidden during T2A: Since there is very little to no information regarding how Detecting Hidden works, we must use player experience to determine how this skill played out. Along those lines, regardless of the fact that the information that I described above is for a time outside of the purview of this server, there were no changes to Detecting Hidden between T2A and early UOR - aside from the skill delay decrease. Thus, it is extremely likely that the Detecting Hidden operated in the same manner during both time frames. In turn, that gives a good deal of credit to the above information with regard to how Detecting Hidden most likely worked during T2A.

Just to be clear, your pvp thief had zero detect but you still had the 50% chance to detect? Isn't a GM detect vs GM hiding a 50% also?

[crabjuice]

One of my characters had GM Detect Hidden on here and it seemed very inconsistent. Sometimes if I targeted a tile that was adjacent to where a mage hid (using hiding skill by a house) it would not reveal them. And sometimes even when I would detect the tile they were in it would not reveal them, it would take a few tries. However, some other times it will reveal a huge field of people. It seemed very inconsistent. I wonder if the ability to hide near houses gets factored in as "GM Hiding" vs the detect hidden skill or something of the sort. You may want to look into that. I ended up dropping that skill because of house inconsistent and useless it was.

[LudKrud]

If it makes a skill check then 0 detect against 0 hiding would be a 50% chance of success or failure.

Same as GM against GM.

[Derrick]

One of my characters had GM Detect Hidden on here and it seemed very inconsistent. Sometimes if I targeted a tile that was adjacent to where a mage hid (using hiding skill by a house) it would not reveal them. And sometimes even when I would detect the tile they were in it would not reveal them, it would take a few tries. However, some other times it will reveal a huge field of people. It seemed very inconsistent. I wonder if the ability to hide near houses gets factored in as "GM Hiding" vs the detect hidden skill or something of the sort. You may want to look into that. I ended up dropping that skill because of house inconsistent and useless it was.

You can't reveal someone inside a house from outside, and vice versa (includes steps). There's no magery check on reveal, and you can reveal someone who has up to 10 more skill points in hiding that you do in reveal. You will always reveal someone who's hiding is 10 points less than your skill.

I'm in the process of reworking this skill for behavior when the revealers skill is < 10 but so far only for testing purposes.

The range is completely skill dependant, up to a 10 tile radius at GM.

[crabjuice]

My examples were when we were both outside the house, it was for an IDOC. We were both in the closest tile to the house.