Tournament Discrepensies

[draggle]

After reading everything i again agree with both original arguments.

Simply stated, bards are lame in survival

Regardless of dexxers having magery or not (i dont even know why this was brought up in this thread) they should be aloud to poison their weapons if they have the skill, after each 1v1 match has begun. **IMO Poisoning weapons should probably be aloud in all events (if you have the skill)**

[venox]

characters with poisoning skill should be able to poison to at least same lvl poison as mages in 1v1 tournaments even if this means using "poison pots".

black you are claiming the same problem dexxers currently face, but from the side of a mage in regards to curing poison.

i personally view poisoning as a pvp skill. and not allowing it to be used on templates that has it, is gimping that template.


i cant be bothered arguing this as well as flash, but im with him all the way.

[Flash Hardstar]

/agree with venox. Hell, atleast a mage can heal through poison!

[Arcanus]

Let me summarize the points I've been trying to make since your reading comprehension or the ability to grasp simple concepts isn't quite up to par.

The use of DEADLY poison without the ability to use cure potions in a 1v1 tournament, REGARDLESS of class, creates a large imbalance, skewing the player-skill factor.

Deadly poison is ABSOLUTELY too difficult to cure with spells alone, and especially in a closed-box environment, where mobility is restricted. The ability to constantly apply it wildly exacerbates this imbalance.

You are under some sick delusion that your lack of an essential skill (magery) somehow entitles you to be as good as those who use it, and cling to this severe handicap as if the very principle of your identity is based upon it. This is simultaneously your scapegoat, the backbone of your argument, and the biggest problem with your template.

A PvP character without magery is stupid to use in a tournament setting.

You fail to acknowledge the fundamental differences between magery and melee/bandages.

You CANNOT compare 5 attempts to cure deadly poison to one bandage, because one bandage DOES NOT COST 45 MANA.

Bandages ARE NOT and SHOULD NOT be as effective as the greater heal or cure spells because they don't cost mana, don't require you stop to cast, and can be disrupted.

APPLES AND ORANGES.

Regardless of whether or not you can deadly poison, you will still never do well in a tournament because you only use bandages to heal yourself.

This is not limited to dexer vs. mage. Imagine how much of a joke deadly poison would be in a dexer vs. dexer fight. By the time Mr. No Magery's bandage goes off to cure it, he'll already be dead.

Hell, greater poison all you want, it's not going to do much for you. We all know Derrick has way too much on his plate to have the time to code these ridiculously complicated customized rules.

[venox]

your barking down the magery root again.
this isnt about magery.
its about poisoning as a pvp skill...

and let derrick speak for himself! he has made explosion pots work differently in multiplayer events. im sure he could allow the poisoning skill.

[Arcanus]

My problem is with DEADLY poison. You cannot DEADLY poison with magery. DEADLY poison will ruin the events.

Flash conveniently lumps all poisoning together as if it's the same. Deadly poison does significantly more damage and is significantly harder to cure than the other levels, which serve solely as a "bandage blocker".

Every pseudo-point Flash has tried to make has been centralized around these "but look what mages can do!" arguments. Magery has everything to do with it.

"MY INABILITY TO CURE BEFORE MY BANDAGES GO OFF AND REFUSAL TO USE MAGERY IS THE REASON WHY I SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENDLESSLY DEADLY POISON AT WILL, WITH NO RESOURCE COST TO ME, SO MY SKILL-LESS TEMPLATE HAS A BETTER CHANCE TO WIN AN EVENT DESIGNED TO DETERMINE THE MOST SKILLED PLAYER."

[venox]

im pretty sure it started as simple as, if mages can cast poison, why cant dexxers with poison-skill, poison their blades?
and if not ban the use of poison spell...


sure put a limit on the lvl of poison, but at least allow it, given they have the skill...
i mean hey, any player that puts poison on a pvp template has it there for a reason, they are just trying to make the best of the available skill choices...

[Flash Hardstar]

Thank you venox for reading my original post and for making arcanus look stupid for trying to flame me with capital quotes. "READ ORIGINAL POST" all you;re worried about is getting dp'ed during a fight, not the logistics, fair0ity ( is that a word?) and overall satisfaction of these 1v1 tourneys

EDIT: I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to stay on legitmate topic proposed

[BloodyBandage]

ok, im ready for productive posts and won't respond to personal attacks

Honestly it's not a bad idea in theory but then you have to ask where the line is drawn. If you only allow characters with poisoning skill to poison then it's only fair to allow those characters with alchemy to have pots. Also, it is only fair to allow characters with blacksmithy to make/wear armor and weapons during the fight, as well as tailors for leather armor, fletchers for bows, fisherman/cook for food, etc. Poisoning is best used on a secondary character, often referred to as a mule since it has no direct or indirect benefit for a pvp character (can be applied before a fight by a mule).

What this will create are poisoner hybrids (if it actually is powerful) for 1 on 1 specialists. Clearly these templates didn't exist back in the day or at least weren't effective. I'm all for making it more diverse but this might be going down a long treacherous path. Alchemists will then want their pots in the tournament and you will never kill them while they are chugging gcures/gheals. If you don't allow alchemists to have their pots than you are discriminating for the sake of poisoning which is unfair. From what I noticed, a small amount of magery should be enough to disturb, cure, and gheal yourself even if you are a dexer.

It sounds condescending to keep pointing to "that's how it is" but sometimes "it is what it is". 1 on 1 rules have been for the most part in line with this shards ruleset since I played UO in 97. No pots or poisoned weps...and most players don't precast gheal although it's up to you. Try precasting gheal and whacking them with your weapon, and you'll see how powerful a dex based char can be. With the new patch approaching I feel there will be more diversity in the pvp templates and archery will be fun again.

In conclusion I feel poisoning will be a paradigm shift in the 1 on 1 from a skill based game to an item based game (those with dp/pots/crafted weapons win). I'll try to keep an open mind, maybe someone can show my analogy of poison - poisoner, pots - alchemist, weps - smith analogy incorrect.

[venox]

allowing the poisoning skill is simply creating an alternate method to poisoning other than casting the spell.

and whats wrong with a little diversity.

poisoning isnt entirally a crafter skill. it just depends on how you use it. sure you can pre-poison all you weapons, but its not as efficient as having the skill on the field.
to explain the reasoning behind your mule based skill logic. the poisoning skill on a pvp template is been used as an offensive-skill not as a mule-skill. and consumes 100 pt of the template thus has to sacrifice another skill for its place in the template...its all part of the ying and yang thing. thus the reason why other temps cant have it. on that note i would put a minimum of 60-70poisoning to be able to use in event.

and poisoning is feasible to use while in combat while on the field, no other "mule" classified skills are.

"hang on a second let me find a forge to craft my exceptional katana so i can smack you"
blacksmithy is clearly a mule skill, and so is alchemy really, i doubt considering the time it takes to make a potion that it could be useful.
anyway this is getting off topic...

poisoning.
mages can cast poison
dexxer have an alternate method to poison with the poison-skill (which consumes skill points).
only seems fair. or delete the poison spell from tournament.

[Arcanus]

Thank you venox for reading my original post and for making arcanus look stupid for trying to flame me with capital quotes. "READ ORIGINAL POST" all you;re worried about is getting dp'ed during a fight, not the logistics, fair0ity ( is that a word?) and overall satisfaction of these 1v1 tourneys

Are you serious? This makes absolutely no sense. I've read your post several times and it doesn't get any more intelligent or valid each time I do so. You have not addressed any of the central points I made, but instead, thrown out a couple completely arbitrary and meaningless terms as if they somehow make your point. You attack not the content of my post, but the tone, which is another incredibly infantile logical fallacy. This only shows how weak your argument is. Your posts are only hurting you.

[venox]

i think your using too many big words which is an incredibly infantile logical fallacy. This only shows how weak your argument is. Your posts are only hurting you.

if your about this thing perceived as "skilled" pvp. then you wouldnt mind a little poison.
mages use it against straight dexxer all the time and beat them down easy. (yes i know you say get magery skill bla bla bla)
why should not a dexxer also be able to apply poison in a different method?

[Ronk]

Deadly poison is ABSOLUTELY too difficult to cure with spells alone, and especially in a closed-box environment, where mobility is restricted. The ability to constantly apply it wildly exacerbates this imbalance.

It also costs 100 skill points. The ability to poison someone for one nightshade and prevent them from healing for 40 seconds could also be considered imbalanced.

You CANNOT compare 5 attempts to cure deadly poison to one bandage, because one bandage DOES NOT COST 45 MANA.

The bandage does cost something and is not free. Beyond the negligible cost of the bandage, it costs time, which is far more valuable and you don't' regenerate time. Not to mention after 20 seconds of being deadly poisoned you are probably dead anyhow.

This is not limited to dexer vs. mage. Imagine how much of a joke deadly poison would be in a dexer vs. dexer fight. By the time Mr. No Magery's bandage goes off to cure it, he'll already be dead.

Ah, so you did know this. Guess you just purposely left it out of the greater heal vs bandage argument

[Arcanus]

i think your using too many big words which is an incredibly infantile logical fallacy. This only shows how weak your argument is. Your posts are only hurting you.

if your about this thing perceived as "skilled" pvp. then you wouldnt mind a little poison.
mages use it against straight dexxer all the time and beat them down easy. (yes i know you say get magery skill bla bla bla)
why should not a dexxer also be able to apply poison in a different method?

How cute. How many f'ing times do I have to repeat myself? DEADLY POISON. That's my only problem. This is like arguing with an NPC.

[BlackFoot]

allowing the poisoning skill is simply creating an alternate method to poisoning other than casting the spell. <------
cure pots create an altenrate mehtod of curing, purple pots an alternate method of cause damage,, heal pots an alternate method of healing ect ect

warriors can poison mages with the poison spell

you mentioned piosoning on the field is more effiecient than pre poisoning a bunch of weapons -> this isnt about field fighting its about tournaments

if you allow piosoning in the match, then you have to allow pots, then you might as well just click the allow pots in this event button
if no pots but you can still poison then everyone is just going to end up with the exact same template dping each other as fast as they can
the exact same way it was always 2 mace dexers in the final of every single match before the last pvp patch
this arguement has been brought up before and it wasnt implemented for the same reason it should not be implemented this time around

peopel are playing their mages in the tournaments because mages are more fun and t2a revolved around the tank mage
allowing lesser characters advantages just to even the field is a bad idea
put magery on your dexer or stick to field fighting