An evidenced look at proposed swing timer changes

[Mens Rea]

Please do not post your "recollections" or "opinions" in this thread - save that for the other threads on this matter.

This thread is for quoted, referenced and traceable evidence of how swing timers operated in T2A.

If we can put together a thread of just this type of information then perhaps we can uncover exactly what it should be like.

The below quote is in reference to exp/eb/hally combos and the changes which we are dealing with. It would seem this chap states that there was a "bug" in the "equip delay" which seems to have existed during the period.

Two spells and a melee attack? That's not an instakill... And it's
also not all that difficult to heal through.

What they ought to be fixing is the bugged arming [emphasis added] delay for melee
weapons. If they got that to work as intended, it'd take a lot away
from your so-called instakill.

The above post is followed by:

That would too. But look at the number(posted on stratics)

Max damage on Explosion 50 (42 at 100 resist)
Max damage on FS 59 (50 at 100 resist)
Hally base damage 52 (after all damage bonusses 49 * 210% = 103
divided by 2 = 52)

For a POSSIBLE damage of 161 (148 at GM resist)

This is all from stratics, and this is one of the easier [emphasis added] combos to
throw.

More discussion of exp/fs/hally combo:

but yeah, expl/flamestrike/hally can easily do over 100 damage on a
good roll of the dice.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+eb+hally#

[Joueur Moyen]

These tidbits might be useful:

Posted by Austin on Dec 22 1999

OK you stand still. Thief pops your pouches and mage paras you. He
casts explode and targets precasts FS off a scroll, and equips hally,
runs up to you hitting with hally at same time explode hits, unequips
and releases FS.

Posted by Jeff Gentry on Dec 22 1999

What skill is there involved with "pre-cast ebolt, arm weapon, strike,
disarm, cast"?

Both suggest the weapon was disarmed before targeting the precast spell.

[Mens Rea]

I would say this [while being anecdotal from 1999] catagorically points towards the equip delay being bugged at this point in time:

Mage duels are already dull as hell. But ... this just really nukes
the pre-cast flamestrike, smack with DP-katana down to 40's, and
release strategy. People using explode/flamestrike/halberd bullshit
just have to switch the order so the halberd comes last. Damn halberd
shouldn't swing as soon as it's equipped anyway. That should be nerfed
-or- at least bow re-arm should be unnerfed.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... lly&lnk=nl&#

If the equip delay "bug" was implemented then the continuous timer system would probably be very close to accurate- now it is just a matter of finding out exactly what this "bug" was and how it worked.

[Mens Rea]

A restrospective discussion of how T2A was back in the day:

They fought well,
and rarely relied on cheap tactics.(Deadly poison, the halberd no-equip delay
bug, etc..)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... lay&lnk=nl&

I'll let Faust decipher this with his expansive knowledge of what they are talking about:

They are moving the "swing delay" to "after the hit" instead of before
it. That helps warriors that aren't using UOA to disarm, heal, rearm
super-fast.

true there will be a delay BETWEEN hits however since damage from a
hit will be delivered at the Beginning of a swing instead of at the
end you will be able to tag someone just by getting next to them.
halberds will simply have twice the delay in between swings as a kryss
or katana but once that delay is up as soon as you get in range of an
opponent the swing is instant.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 0131c39d0a

[Derrick]

Thanks for the thread. Please add dates to these when possible.

[Mens Rea]

Thanks for the thread. Please add dates to these when possible.

Sorry about that... They are all 1999, and seemingly prior to the implementation of the demise of the 7x mage.

The terms of the discussion are all relevant to the point being considered at any rate.

EDIT: Some of the posts seem to all have the same date and time. This suggests to me that they should be in light of their context and content- I only included posts which seemed to be relevant to what we are looking at.

[Mens Rea]

Not hugely relevant, but on topic (date included in URL):

Glamdring - *Airc* When the attack damage was put in at the beginning of the swing in combat it looked odd. Still does. Could the swing animations be sped up quite a bit? Also, for the times when you aren't swinging, how about "fakes" and "twists", as well as thrusts and different swings for weapons. I'd think thrusting with a longsword or halberd would be part of the combat...
SunSword - Yes, it does look odd. I'd like to take a look at the animation sequence and see if we can't make it sync up better (same with the logs and the chopping sound effect).

http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/1999-07-01-pub.shtml

P.S If anyone knows how to quickly (without copying and pasting every page one at a time) get all of the text from these into one Wiki page that would be useful for CTRL-Fing for stuff.

[Hemperor]

Equip delay on all weapons, demo timeframe:

DesignerD> We plan on making the melee weapons more competitive, finding a
>way to make archery less powerful (probably greater penalties for hit and
>run or some such), and maybe making dex matter more if we can."

....

If melee weapons could strike FIRST, then get the delay, rather then the other
way around, the system would be a lot better.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games ... quip+delay#

I believe the equip delay was removed on all weapons, for a small point, likely around (or exactly at) the implementation of insta-hit. There was, sometime afterwards, a "nerf" to archery which re-added the equip delay to it. All theory right now, just going off the few Usenet posts I've read this morning (early, low sleep ):

Used to be a meleer had no chance against an archer. But after
removing drinking potions with a bow, making archers stand still
longer, adding first strike ability, adding the arm/disarm delay,
fixing the armor damage calculation, increasing melee speed, and
decreasing bow speed ... the only archer with an advantage is one with
a superior connection who can avoid getting hit.

> lot harder and the delay in the bow firing after you equip it is ridiculous
> (basically the bow is only good if you have it equipped BEFORE the fight
> starts or AFTER he's dumped all his mana at which point you're probably
> dead ).

No argument here! Wish they'd get rid of that delay.... either that or
give the same delay to toe-to-toe weapons and spell casting.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games ... quip+delay

Would need quite a bit more to back it up, the people in these archived posts generally didn't have much of a clue. It's important to note, that regardless the equip delay on a bow would be much more painstakingly obvious than say someone equipping a sword, but I think these posts give at least much more reason to look into it.

[Psilo]

Nice find!

[Rammar]

P.S If anyone knows how to quickly (without copying and pasting every page one at a time) get all of the text from these into one Wiki page that would be useful for CTRL-Fing for stuff.

Not what you asked for, but since it has its own subdomain you can just use google.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=si ... .com+swing

[Mens Rea]

Not what you asked for, but since it has its own subdomain you can just use google.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=si ... .com+swing

MINT - I never knew that command in google. Time to dig. Cheers.

[Mens Rea]

This is only partially relevant to this topic but is relevant to combos, and the concept of being able to EXP/EB/HALLY and get the damage to hit at the same time:

Glamdring - *Ceri* There is a delay on the explosion spell that allows you to cast EXP then E-bolt before it registers as being attacked... will this be fixed? and if so when?
DD - That's not a bug, it's intentional to add more tactical diversity to magical attacks.

http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/1999-03-12-pub.shtml

[Mens Rea]

I found some developer comments relevant to this topic [from 2000, but talking about pre-2000]:

The first change I would like to address would be that made to precasting. For months we have been hearing about a spell-hally combo able to do 80 points of damage faster than you can say "Kal Ort Por."

While there were some legitimate uses for pre-casting, it just was too much of a danger to keep in the hands of those who would misuse it. The general population benefits from less danger of "one-hit deaths"...

http://update.uo.com/cgi-bin/comments.pl?id=74

[Fwerp]

Good finds Rea...

I shudder to think of a T2A shard where Exp/EB/Hally does NOT work...

[Mens Rea]

These tidbits might be useful:

Posted by Austin on Dec 22 1999

OK you stand still. Thief pops your pouches and mage paras you. He
casts explode and targets precasts FS off a scroll, and equips hally,
runs up to you hitting with hally at same time explode hits, unequips
and releases FS.

Posted by Jeff Gentry on Dec 22 1999

What skill is there involved with "pre-cast ebolt, arm weapon, strike,
disarm, cast"?

Both suggest the weapon was disarmed before targeting the precast spell.

The dates are after the cut off?