Combat Timer Trial and other proposed changes now on Test

[Joueur Moyen]

No need to really discuss equip casting since it's already been heavily discussed before. We know it worked in July '98 for sure. The only known patch note to remove any possible method of equip casting would have been the precast removal patch. However, we know parry mages existed during the UOR era through various sources. Also, the reimplementation of precasting specifically states a new addition where equipping a weapon during the casting sequence will interrupt spell casting. There are known sources discussing the reimplementation of precasting from EA developers. Specifically, when precasting was reinstated by alleviating the forceful requirement of spellbooks, it was possible to equip cast briefly for a few days before the updated version of it that disrupted spells was added. The only thing that prevented a mage from equipping a weapon during combat was that forceful requirement of a spellbook. This feature was removed during the same patch that reinstated precasting. However, if parry mages could equip a shield during these spellbook casting days than a weapon would have functioned the same way if the spellbook didn't prevent the weapon from being equipped in the first place.

There is no need to discuss equip casting since it's fairly obvious when you go from Point A to Point B that it was most certainly possible.

Did you have any UOA macros that cast spell/armed weapon, one right after the other?

[Mens Rea]

No need to really discuss equip casting since it's already been heavily discussed before.

I agree with you on this Fausty.

However, I think you should take a good, long, hard veiny try at performing an exb/eb/hally hit (in that order) with the intent of making the damage hit near simulatenously.

Try it on the ogre at ice arena.

Then, try it against a player who is fighting back.

This most simple of combos was not a 1 in 100, 10 or 5 - it could be done on demand without having to take a gamble with an ever-ticking swing timer. Then, taking another gamble that your opponent is not going to attacklast you and ruin it.

Function vs form my friend. The function of the combat system is to replicate the era, whether or not the form is accurate.

And some of this based on the patch note "Swings will now be held"? Risky biz.

[Derrick]

We're taking a good hard look at everything and it's been pulled from test for now.

We have a flawless Pre-T2A combat system, but the slight changes that were made to it between then and T2A proper may still be a mystery for now. We'll continue to look at it; the bulk of the work has now been done.

Thanks to everyone who has and continues to provide feedback memories and hard facts in this thread and countless other threads. Give UOSA time and we'll get it right.

[Faust]

Mens Rea, this was a post that I made a couple days ago in another thread about the changes.

Please explain, anyone.

Players using melee weapons in combat will now hold their swing until their target is in range.

This same process exists in the original OSI code that works in two instances. First, when you're in combat the timer continues to loop the currently equipped weapon delay. Second, if you're not in combat(IE:tab out) the timer continues to move forward past the current weapon delay. The reason it functions this way is because the 'range' check comes after the code that processes the swing.

Wrestling has a delay of 2.25s at 25 stam.
Hally has a delay of 4.75s at 25 stam.

A timer that loops every 2.25s can never even reach 'half' of a standard hally delay when there is a combatant. The only way this could be achieved is by tabbing out OR swings holding in a held state like they currently do on the server. However, swings holding in a held state is quite the contrary to the UOR patch note that is past the t2a era listed above here.

Moving forward to the equip delay... The equip delay was patched in '97 that is simply a reset on your delay EVERY time you equip a weapon. There are many documented sources describing this game mechanic. How could an explosion, ebolt, hally combo take place if this was the case? I'm definitely not saying this combo isn't possible since I used it many times myself... However, the known facts simply do not back any of this up for some reason. Unless someone can come up with something that hasn't been mentioned as of now. Also, I don't remember ever being forced to tab out in order to pull off the combo too.

Hopefully someone can add something that may help here.

There are only two possible scenarios that come to my mind.

1. The insta hit patch was the first instance of swings being held in a holding state. The UOR patch could have easily reverted back to the code that existed prior to the insta hit patch. This could explain the reason this 'possible bug' may have been reimplemented in the first place with the UOR publish and the mini UOR update listed above that fixed it very shortly after it went live.

2. Swings did not hold in a held state during t2a and the insta hit/prep time patch modified the equip delay that was later reverted back without notation with the UOR publish to its original function that existed before the insta hit patch. However, this is contrary to the dozen or so sources that explain the 'equip delay' pretty vividly at times during the t2a era.

[Bong Hit]

All I want to know, are these changes goin live soon? I think some players feel left in the dark, with the recent patch alot seem to be waiting for things to balance out. I think the best part of t2a, the reason everyone enjoyed playing was the consistancy. UOSA is the only free shard to have any stability at all.
So what can we expect Big Fellah?

[Derrick]

All I want to know, are these changes goin live soon? I think some players feel left in the dark, with the recent patch alot seem to be waiting for things to balance out. I think the best part of t2a, the reason everyone enjoyed playing was the consistancy. UOSA is the only free shard to have any stability at all.
So what can we expect Big Fellah?

It won't go live unless it's right and even there there will be an abundance of time for testing.

What we launched on test Friday is demonstrably not correct, and has been pulled from the test center.

It's important to remember that we say test center that's what it is. It's not preview center. Unfortunately because this is misunderstood we commonly get very little real testing and feedback from test center and end up launching broken mechanics. Case-in-point is the AI changes in patch 130 which have had to undergo massive revision since launch.

Point being: Please test if you have the stomach for it, but don't freak out because it doesn't work. We have a very open development process here and 90% of it is dependant on our players active and level-headed participation in the process.

[Faust]

Derrick's response was pretty straight forward in my opinion...

We're taking a good hard look at everything and it's been pulled from test for now.

The previous changes on test center were not correct due to a few mechanical issues that obviously made it not right. A good majority of the foundation was right but there is no point in keeping it on the test center until ALL the mechanics are in fact right. I suspect there to be changes eventually once everything is reanalyzed and fixed for more future testing. That was the reason it was simply a 'trial' to see how it panned out with real live testing for data feedback.

[Mens Rea]

What sucks is this:

The only "T2A PVP" video on YouTube is not from T2A.

Snow hair proves this.

SERIOUSLY, IS THERE NOT A SINGLE FLAMING VIDEO OF T2A PVP IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE?????????????????

I've looked, apparently not.

I emailed MarkeeDragon about 18 months ago about a matter regarding accuracy, but that enormous-obese-rotund piece of "sheizenhowser" was too good to get back to me.

I think that morbidly obese piece of gamer history probably has the videos we are looking for.

Too bad he has already probably passed away from heart disease/diabetese/liver failure/kidney failure/having to be hauled out of his 8th story apartment by a crane to be taken to a breathing machine because he is too fat and a cockonut to breath for himself, to answer back.

[Psilo]

Looking forward to testing the fixed changes again when its put back on TC.

[Faust]

Does anyone have any comment on my post about weapon swings holding in a held state?

I still don't believe there is any possible way to pull off an exp, eb, hally combo during actual combat(IE: having a combatant, not tabbed out) when wrestling loops every 2.25s. There is no explanation for how wrestling can go from 2.25s to 4.75s instantly under this mechnical process of looping swings for a combo to be pulled off like this That is why I am starting to believe the theory about swings holding in a held state being implemented, reverted in place of previous code, and modified back out the following next mini update patch to be a meaningful argument.

[Psilo]

I wish I had more testing to really be able to comment better.

I'm a bit confused by your post as well.

I think anything that is going to thoroughly screw up the feel of pvp(we must be able to explo e bolt hally perfectly since we ALL KNOW that's era accurate) should be avoided for now. Anything that will is proven that adds "good features" to pvp be left in if its proven accurate. The equip delay kinda seems odd, I remember being able to explo e bolt hally hit with ease after some practice, I don't remember my hally having a delay when I equip before it does damage. It should be instant if you "have your hit held" or whatever.

We definitely need equip-casting to make up for whatever delay you are trying to implement(the equip delay?) and also to make up for the current object delay. We can't put one thing in without the other or else pvp will be screwed up.

[Faust]

The equip delay already exists in the current live UOSA shard. It only triggers when you equip a weapon when your swing isn't ready restarting your delay over. However, obviously in a system where the swing doesn't hold in a held state this is not possible. The original equip delay was patched in late '97 that states "Equipping a weapon in combat restarts your swing". This function exists in the original OSI code and simply sets your SwingCounter to 0 anytime you equip a weapon. Setting your SwingCounter to 0 is equivalent to starting a delay all over in other words. This same mechanic still exists to this very day on production shards.

Here is a breakdown of the following sources involving the equip/arm delay from one of my previous posts.

Here is the compiled list of everything that I was able to find from the initial patch in '97 up to this point in time...

- Equip/Lift Delay -

1997, December 16th - Patch
Equipping a weapon in combat will restart your weapon swing.

Reference: http://wiki.uosecondage.com/?title=1997_Patch_Notes

1998, July - UO Demo
Equipping or lifting a weapon adjusts the swing counter to zero.

Reference: Batlin

1999, January 27th - Google Groups
Won't matter for us pure warriors; we still won't have a chance to hit
anything under the sun. Since they're adding an equip delay, it will take
even longer to hit something.

RE:That's just to make the game fair for non-UOA users. So a UOA user
can't disarm and arm with a single keystroke - much quicker than a
non-UOA user.

They are moving the "swing delay" to "after the hit" instead of before
it. That helps warriors that aren't using UOA to disarm, heal, rearm
super-fast.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

1999, February 24th - Google Groups
Is this delay for all weapons, or just ranged weapons? It is very annoying. A
damn ettin walked off the screen while I was waiting to fire.

RE:As far as I can tell, all weapons have a delay before the first swing,
depending on the weapon's swing time.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 29cfbb2369

1999, April 19th - Google Groups
Archers: Another 'cool' char class, though really quite poor. Unless you have 100


dex, supremely acc +23 archery bows and and 100 skill you will hit so infrequently
that anyone can do anything between the shots. Combined with the equip delay it
is too slow. However, a fast moving archer can give an advantage (as everything).
I agree with some other comments; poor to begin with, nerfed to nothing.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

1999, May 13th - Google Groups
Pandemonium mentioned that he would like to make it so that you can drink
potions and cast spells with weapons equiped (but still have the re-equip
delay before you start firing/swinging again). I'm not sure about the
balance issues raised by this, but it seems like it might make two handed
weapons (such as bows more popular with those who do not use UOA.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 8dde8841b8

1999, June 22nd - Google Groups
Ideas I like most so far:


1) Increase the fire rate, decrease the re-arm delay;
2) Increased accuracy to offset the cost of arrows and the fact that
good mages never miss, and meleers hit so fast they hardly notice;
3) Ability to interrupt an archers fire to balance the other changes.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 4e6d4f95d8

1999, August 12th - Google Groups
For instance, my mage is still holding on to his archery and because
of the arm delay cannot effectively use the "combo". Well, plus I'd
died to lag of death twice last night and decided not to even pickup a
bow.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 8e13bc5812

1999, December 16th - UOHOC
Glamdring - *Asparouh-LoD* Archery is the least popular fighting skill now and continues to go down. Are you going to at least fix the extremelly long delay before a bow starts shooting when equipped?Any changes planned to make crossbows and heavy crossbows useful again?My bowyer is starving!
Firedog - Much of our attention is focused at this time on the six-month plan. Making adjustments to specific skills will most probably
Firedog - not take place until after we implement that plan.
Firedog - After this happens, there will certainly be more time to look at individual skills, and archery is certainly one
Firedog - that I would like to take a look at.

Reference: http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/1999-12-16-pub.shtml

2000, January 15th - Google Groups
Not true on either account as far as I know. The nerf on archery
included removing the ability to drink potions with a bow equipped and
then adding a horendously long equip delay for all types of bows.

RE:The equip delay is a real killer though, especially
since there doesn't seem to be one for the other weapons.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

2000, January 16th - Google Groups
weapon delay. Why does archery have such a huge
delay, but a halberd doesn't? The equip delay
for archery needs to be shortened, and lengthened
for some other weapons. I'd make the delay weapon
based and not "skill class" based.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 48463443bb

2000, February 3rd - UOHOC
Glamdring - *Exe_* "BTW, great changes lately, the game seems livelier than ever. Archery Question: Is there a reason you decided to increase the firing rate as opposed to decreasing the equip delay? IMO it's the equip delay which makes the bow practically useless in pvp and the reason most people choose not to use it."
Sage - Excellent point. Rune and I were discussing this earlier. This is definitely something we need to address. Should we go ahead with these changes, it will be. Excellent question. Thanks.

Reference: http://uohoc.stratics.com/logs/2000-02-03-pub.shtml

2000, March 8th - Google Groups
Maybe just me, I can take the firing rate, but that damn equip delay really
kills my archers.

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

2000, August 1st - Google Groups
i) Oh, your GM Archer appears to have missed 10 times in a row.
ii) Oh, look at that I have full health and mana, and you cant drink a
potion without that stupid re-arm delay penalty. Kal Vas ... ooOOoo

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... m+delay%22#

2000, October 31st - Google Groups
The arm delay is still far too long, even after the <so-called> adjustment,
and the fail rate for a gm archer is absolutely ridicules. (IMHO).

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... d806863ea7

2001, August 3rd - UOPowergamers.com
Archery is the weakest fighting skill, and only useful in few situations. It's advantage is that you can hit monsters (or players..) without having to stand directly next to them and getting hit back. The only other skill that allows you to do this is magery.
The drawbacks are the slow firing delay and long equip delay of the xbow and heavy xbow, the VERY limited range of bolts and arrows, the fact that you can't move until your weapon hits (or misses) it's target (Moving stops the shot, and that you can outrun arrows and bolts (!!).

Reference: http://www.uopowergamers.com/a-aug01.shtml

2002, March 8th - Google Groups
I didn't like dying, but i bore a grudging respect for them. They fought well,
and rarely relied on cheap tactics.(Deadly poison, the halberd no-equip delay
bug, etc..)

Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... p+delay%22#

Present Day - Ultima Online Production Shards
Still sets the swing counter to zero when equipping/unequipping a weapon.

Reference: Kaivan

A few other sources have actually been stumbled upon accidentally during research since this post was made that never made it on the list too...

[Brules]

Why not just replicate the PVP from a shard like IPY - it had probably the clostest thing to 1999 I ever saw. How hard can it be to code PvP to be like this:

http://www.wtfman.com/oldjov/stories/nhawk19.htm




No tab/attack last spam, just good old cast-equip-unequip-cast etc.

[nightshark]

brules is that a joke? IPY pvp was nothing like an accurate t2a system. there was no attacklast spam because attacklast didn't function like it did on osi

[Mens Rea]

FAUST

Do not forget that even people who posted on the forums back in nineteen ninety whatever are probably idiots too.

BUT

They seem to all be talking about archery equip delay - which is accurate.

Hallys are acting like bows. ARCHERY WAS SHITE BACK THEN BECAUSE THEY MADE IT SHITE.

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS:

Where is the patch note from way further down the track that swings will now be held?

Regards,

Mens Rea