Something to consider about this game

[Sandro]

i remember when we had 750-800 online average..

[Psilo]

As Faust said the code you guys most likely won't understand the code, so stop complaining and making assumptions.

The biggest issue I've gotten from all these discussions is that Tank Mages can Hallywhack you every 3 seconds.

No, actually technically with 25 dex you can hit every 1.8 seconds. Real times second.

Now most mages on UOSA just spam hally with 35 dex the whole fight, it takes no skill or strategy.

Whatever happened to explosion in 1v1 fights? It's useless since the hally literally hits so much u can out DPS anyone who tries to cast anything but e bolt and hally whack.

Right now people are abusing the hally cycle hardcore, I am looking forward to this patch so people learn to use more magic and less luck spamming.

[Sandro]

The problem isn't the swing timer at all. It's simply that greater heal is extremely powerful in the T2A era. If you allow your opponent to get a gheal cursor, you can't counter it, because poison doesn't block heal.

It's pretty difficult as it is now to kill a skilled opponent, as mini heal is ridiculous. Mini heal spam is almost impossible to die, unless you allow your opponent to continuously hit you, but attack last spam is so popular here that everyone and their mother has a macro for that.

[Blackbeard]

No, actually technically with 25 dex you can hit every 1.8 seconds. Real times second

Technically you shouldn't be able to hit them that often with 25 dexterity in fake or real time.

[Mens Rea]

Just my two sense... The problem with the whole 'democratic process' with determining how PvP was back then is that it is not a democratic process. Somebody has to steer the ship, and hopefully they use all the information available to them to steer it properly.

UO:R changes to insta-hit (I was there)

• UO:R made it so the less dex you had the later in the swing-animation your weapon hit would occur.
• This was the end of insta-hit for mages, because they did not have enough dexterity to cause an instant hit.
• Dexers could still insta-hit with a hally/any-weapon because they had enough dex.

How I remember double-hitting (I was there)

• Double-click/attack target with hally equipped.
• Tab out and unequip hally (or any other weapon for that matter).
• Wait a few seconds.
• Re-equip hally.
• Attack target and run at them.
• If your timing was right, and often it was, you would get two swings in very quick succession.

What I wonder is how the double-hit bug fits into Faust's proposed system? Because if Faust's proposed system is accurate, then it should be potentially possible to do this- whether or not it is implemented should be up for discussion.

Archery during T2A

• Archery was shit for mages during T2A.
• Almost nobody used archery mages, and if they did 9/10 times they would be beaten by the hally mage.
• I don't even remember the exact reason why it was so shit- but the end result was that they couldn't actually perform an insta-hit and people could run out of range of the arrows.
• Pre-T2A had archery insta-hit from my understanding.

I am willing to see what Faust comes up with. It would be good to see a change from the current system, which in my opinion is completely inaccurate to the era and should potentially not have been implemented.

[Psilo]

Technically you shouldn't be able to hit them that often with 25 dexterity in fake or real time.

I agree, I was just pointing out that right now it's 1.8 CLOCK seconds.

Most people count to 3 or say its 3 seconds cause they count fast, but yea 1.8 is ridiculous. Definitely not t2a.

We'll see what the changes do!

[Sandro]

OSI wasn't like this because nobody knew the timing and mechanics, and because not nearly the amount of pvpers back then had all the sophisticated macros we have today.

It's not inaccurate, it's just adapted pvp.

[Mens Rea]

OSI wasn't like this because nobody knew the timing and mechanics, and because not nearly the amount of pvpers back then had all the sophisticated macros we have today.

It's not inaccurate, it's just adapted pvp.

Perhaps you didn't, but those with skills did. Were you there or not?

[Faust]

Didn't understand a word there. The timer is separate from the states? That can't be right at all.

What is there not to understand? The states only advance when you have a combatant because the routine that is called inside of the code that changes the states is called ONLY when you don't have a combatant. The timer still runs if you tab out, get off screen, kill your opponent, and whatever multiple situations that can occur in order to lose a combatant. However, the routine that changes the states does not get called when a combatant isn't present. This isn't that difficult to understand. Also, never said the states wasn't a part of the timer. The swing state is an integer variable attached to the mobile(your character).

What's confusing is, earlier in an IRC conversation with Faust, he states:

<Faust> swing, damage, animation = insta-hit

Wouldn't this mean that the damage (state 3), then have to occur before State 2? I guess our conception of insta-hit for the last two years here has been completely wrong but I guess Faust is still going to keep it.

The definition is just going to be completely changed.

You obviously didn't understand a single word in our conversation discussing the original timer.

The animation duration listed in the original code is 4 for archery and 6 for melee weapons(this is just in the timer that allows someone to swing and has no real association with the animation itself). To make insta work in a VERY quick modification to the code you just have to change that variable to 0. This in other words makes the wait time for the animation 0 seconds, meaning it will progress forward to state 3(damage) in one tick.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about this even after being explained to you several times in our conversation.

0, 1, 2, 3
Weapon Duration, Buffer, Animation, Damage

When the wait time for state 2 is 0 ticks in this sequence what do you think happens from state 1 to 3 in this sequence for melee weapons? This should be obvious to anyone if that wait time is 0 ticks when the timer calls this routine every tick(0.25s).

The animation packet is an entirely different discussion and is simply a visual effect with no association with the weapon delay and damage code itself besides telling the packet to be called for a swing.

The definition is just going to be completely changed.

He states that this is because of a Patch Note from 2000 that states "Players using melee weapons will now hold their swing until their target is in range."

...

The patch note that you speak of is listed for the UOR publish(an era after the one we are replicating). This clearly tells you that the day before this patch the range check was still being processed in the code after the swing takes place. This same process was active in mid/late '98(a time frame that was before the era we are replicating. We know the code for the range check functioned like this before and after the era we are replicating. I don't see how hard it is to follow from Point A to Point B here...

In the end, it kind of sounds like he's just making the instant hit dodge able, which isn't accurate. He even says it himself.

<Faust> theoretically it is dodging but not dodging the animation
<Faust> you will be able to dodge the insta hit by being out of range when it triggers

We can conclusively declare that the range check is in fact accurate after my last paragraph that clearly demostrates that this was the case.

Again, until you learn how to program and understand how the code from the original timer works you will never grasp the concept of how the original timer works. However, Derrick does understand it and can follow the discussion a lot better. If you really want to make accusations that something isn't accurate/false than go learn to read and write C and analyze the original code yourself.

What I wonder is how the double-hit bug fits into Faust's proposed system?

This isn't my system.

The double hit exploit actually should be possible by tabbing out in state 3(immediately when you hit) to allow the timer to continue advancing without restarting. This would shift the swing counter and swing state back to state 1(one second before swinging). This is possible because the code for this routine is called every tick(0.25s) meaning the window of opportunity to pull this off is the same.

okay faust can you explain to me with an example of exactly how everything will work with everything to do with weapon swings.

<insert blah blah blah, this isn't divinity rant>

Divinity is dead, get over it.

The way the original swing timer worked has been explained thoroughly in this thread, please read it.

why would you add the ability to dodge a melee attack when theres already a 50% chance to miss at 100 / 100..

Did we develop these game mechanics? Are you asking why we would develop, code, and implement the same code that OSI used in a server that is suppose to be replicating it or what? Please clarify your post since you sound like we are making a server that builds onto t2a instead of one that replicates it.

[Blackbeard]

analyze the original code yourself.

I'd love to. Would you be so kind as to provide a link to the uploaded code?

[Faust]

JoinUO.com

Told you where to look for it already but here it is anyway...

This is just the original timer in mid/late '98 and it does not have insta hit.

[Mens Rea]

What I wonder is how the double-hit bug fits into Faust's proposed system?

This isn't my system.

The double hit exploit actually should be possible by tabbing out in state 3(immediately when you hit) to allow the timer to continue advancing without restarting. This would shift the swing counter and swing state back to state 1(one second before swinging). This is possible because the code for this routine is called every tick(0.25s) meaning the window of opportunity to pull this off is the same.

This is not how double hit was actually used though.

If the proposed system is meant to reflect the 1999 system then double hit should be possible by using the old technique.

Using simple deduction, it is clear that the proposed system does not reflect the 1999 system because double hit is not able to be used by using the old technique.

[Faust]

The two processes are one in the same and do the exact same thing.

Double-click/attack target with hally equipped.
Tab out and unequip hally (or any other weapon for that matter).
Wait a few seconds.
Re-equip hally.
Attack target and run at them.
If your timing was right, and often it was, you would get two swings in very quick succession.

Code: Select all

- Mens Rosa Version -

1. Double-click/attack target with hally equipped.
This can only be done if your swing counter is greater than the weapon delay that is currently equipped. Damage would have to be dealt during this blow. 


2. Tab out and unequip hally (or any other weapon for that matter).
Tabbing out would have to be immediate, and would stop the AdvanceSwingState() routine from being called since you would not have a combatant. Unequipping the weapon would maintain the same state since you are not in state 0(otherwise it would reset both the swing counter and state to 0) when disarming.

3. Wait a few seconds.
Does not really matter how long you wait here.

4. Re-equip hally.
The equip delay just like the unequip delay maintains the current state since it's not 0.

5. Attack target and run at them.
Attacking a target will allow the AdvanceSwingState() routine to be called since a combatant must be established in order for the code to call it. This routine would shift your swing counter and state back to 1(one second before you can swing again).

6. If your timing was right, and often it was, you would get two swings in very quick succession.
A second swing would be possible if you're in range with a minimum of 1 second in between swings. 

Code: Select all

- The Other Version -

1. Double-click/attack target with hally equipped.
This can only be done if your swing counter is greater than the weapon delay that is currently equipped. Damage would have to be dealt during this blow. 


2. Tab out.
Tabbing out would have to be immediate, and would stop the AdvanceSwingState() routine from being called since you would not have a combatant. 

3. Wait a few seconds.
Does not really matter how long you wait here.

5. Attack target and run at them.
Attacking a target will allow the AdvanceSwingState() routine to be called since a combatant must be established in order for the code to call it. This routine would shift your swing counter and state back to 1(one second before you can swing again).

6. If your timing was right, and often it was, you would get two swings in very quick succession.
A second swing would be possible if you're in range with a minimum of 1 second in between swings. 

With both versions the same process is being made with in the code, but the only difference is that equipping/unequipping a weapon is just making you do more work. The same exact procedures are being called inside of the code though.

[Mens Rea]

I see Faust...

Just to further define Step 1 and the use of the term "attack", what I mean there is being in war mode and double clicking on them. You don't swing at them yet, it probably reset that attack-something-or-rather timer thing you talk of.

The ideal context I refer to the double-hit process in, is:
1) paralysing an enemy
2) standing a few steps back
3) going through the aforementioned double-hit process.

[Faust]

If you were to use paralyze and use a hally it would be a little different.

1. Paralyze
2. Equip hally and tab out of combat.
3. Wait 5 seconds(or whatever your hally delay is).
4. Run up or stand next to your target it doesn't matter. Standing back just saves you from getting beat on during the process.
5. First swing, tab out immediately(0.25s window of opportunity), re-attack.
6. Second swing.

This second swing can be countered if your opponent gets out of range though.