PvP Inaccuracies

[Mordalf]

wether we were doing pvp or fighting in a dungion or dualing another guild or within the guild for practice.

The first thing my first guild taught me was don't waste time and mana on a fighter mage trying to get off Great heals. Swing move mini heal swing... Greater heal took too much in the way of mana, resources, and time. You could get intrrupted too easily on a GH and 3 mini heals did about the same hp regain, with less mana cost and risk (pluse mandrake was like gold).

If we were healing the fighters and hanging back in a dungion or a huge fight (like a guild battle) we'd limit our selves to teleports to stay out of danger and mini heals to keep mana high and keep people healed enough to keep them from dieing. That way we were less likely to run out of mana. Also unless the atacker was using a katana or a kris we could heal faster than they could swing so it was hard to kill our guys. When an foe was near death we'd drop a quick ebolt to end the fight but that was even a risk. Obviously here I'm talking group tactics. Of couse we would have mages deidcated to healing and ones dedicated to attacking, but none of us ever used greater heal we always spammed mini heal.

[Watatsumi]

I don't understand why something that was written on the internet 10 years ago has more value than what actual players remember happened. That's like sourcing the National Enquirer in all honesty which is pretty lame when there's actual players that remember how this stuff worked.

Eye-witness testimony is the least credible and least reliable form of evidence. The players who claim to remember something differently may very well be right, but it's more likely that they are wrong when every written and documented source we have disagrees with them.

Which side more likely to be right? The players, who are subject to things like confirmation bias, who vaguely remember bits and pieces of information from 10 years ago that they didn't have the presence of mind to commit to memory in the first place? Or the people who wrote down the mechanics of the time and made it a point to document them?

I'm not saying either side is right. I don't really know and I don't really remember much of the specific pvp mechanics of t2a, but I think the way this shard strives for era accuracy is well thought out. Era accurate changes should require a source.

Yet in the American legal system eye-witness testimony decides the life or death of someone accused of murder. Very ironic indeed.

[Faust]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

[Watatsumi]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

Typically no, but it has happened. But the argument you use not to use peoples memory is faulty. If it is good enough for our justice system with peoples lives in the balance it sure as hell be good enough for a game. Especially since a lot of your so called "proof" is circumstantial and could not be used it court without the very "eye-witness" testimony you choose not to accept. Very funny indeed. Point being you need to use both peoples memory and your circumstantial evidence to develop the closest representation of the T2A era. Using one or the other without using common sense makes for very shitty pvp.

[Biohazard]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

Typically no, but it has happened. But the argument you use not to use peoples memory is faulty. If it is good enough for our justice system with peoples lives in the balance it sure as hell be good enough for a game. Especially since a lot of your so called "proof" is circumstantial and could not be used it court without the very "eye-witness" testimony you choose not to accept. Very funny indeed. Point being you need to use both peoples memory and your circumstantial evidence to develop the closest representation of the T2A era. Using one or the other without using common sense makes for very shitty pvp.

In the world of free servers though when you start following peoples memories you end up with a f'ed up shard thats out of whack and turns into a ghost town in the end.

[Mikel123]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

Typically no, but it has happened. But the argument you use not to use peoples memory is faulty. If it is good enough for our justice system with peoples lives in the balance it sure as hell be good enough for a game. Especially since a lot of your so called "proof" is circumstantial and could not be used it court without the very "eye-witness" testimony you choose not to accept. Very funny indeed. Point being you need to use both peoples memory and your circumstantial evidence to develop the closest representation of the T2A era. Using one or the other without using common sense makes for very shitty pvp.

This is ridiculous.

The US justice system was crafted 200+ years ago. They didn't know we'd have video cameras, DNA evidence screenshots, and archive.org to record things.

Also, it's not dependent on "faulty" memories. If you don't remember something, you say so. If you lie under oath, you're risking jail time for perjury. I guarantee you, if we were "under oath" here, and subject to perjury charges if our recollections that we state as fact are proven incorrect, there'd be a lot less whining and "OMGZ I TOTALLY REMEMBER THAT'S HOW IT WUZ".

[moomtazz]

I will give my own eyewitness account of pvp back then. I played on Chesapeake from release till just after Siege Perilous came out. 99% of my time was spent in pvp. My character was Death[MiM].

Back then everyone used UOAssist for pvp. UOExtreme was a similar program, but by then had been deemed illegal. There was no use of an AttackLast macro. There was no "focus" target like what is available in the client we are using on T2A. There was no "TargetNext" macro. You had to manually click and drag healthbars, and you had to manually double click the healthbar or name to put you into melee mode.

All you had was "Last Target" and "TargetSelf" via UOAssist. Insert = arm hally, Shift+Insert = Arm Katana, Delete = Disarm

I think there was an arm/disrm available through the UO client, but I just used UOA for that.

[Watatsumi]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

Typically no, but it has happened. But the argument you use not to use peoples memory is faulty. If it is good enough for our justice system with peoples lives in the balance it sure as hell be good enough for a game. Especially since a lot of your so called "proof" is circumstantial and could not be used it court without the very "eye-witness" testimony you choose not to accept. Very funny indeed. Point being you need to use both peoples memory and your circumstantial evidence to develop the closest representation of the T2A era. Using one or the other without using common sense makes for very shitty pvp.

This is ridiculous.

The US justice system was crafted 200+ years ago. They didn't know we'd have video cameras, DNA evidence screenshots, and archive.org to record things.

Also, it's not dependent on "faulty" memories. If you don't remember something, you say so. If you lie under oath, you're risking jail time for perjury. I guarantee you, if we were "under oath" here, and subject to perjury charges if our recollections that we state as fact are proven incorrect, there'd be a lot less whining and "OMGZ I TOTALLY REMEMBER THAT'S HOW IT WUZ".

LOL, the simple fact is the proof used is circumstantial, thats how it was in the demo/ UOR so that means it must be that way it was in T2A. Perjury? lol. So your saying the witnesses whose testimony used to convict people on death row will be prosecuted after said inmate is exonerated after DNA evidence? Wrong they are not you have no idea what you are talking about.
You proved my point actually, like the justice system today they use a combination of eye-witness, circumstantial and hard evidence to prove their case. With the lack of hard evidence for this era the shard is based purely on circumstantial evidence.
You are not smart, please do not try to be.

[Luca|Blight]

Faust did you read the first line of that Japanese website you linked to? It's a RECOLLECTION of the guys memory of UO lmfao. And this is what's deciding our current system? A horribly Google translated Japanese article? lol...

direct quote from weblink "Honestly, I vaguely remember quite content these days"

Update on specific topics being discussed in here.

Here is the Japanese Website that describes many of the techniques being discussed here that was written in late 1999.

□ Zero-Delay (abbreviated ZD)
当時は動いているとDelayが溜まらない仕様だった。 Delay was running at the time and the溜Maranai specifications. その為、逃げる相手に武器を当て続けるのは不可能。 For this reason, continue to rely on other weapons is impossible to escape. 武器を振るには立ち止まってDelayを溜める必要があったのだ。 Delay stopped to shake the weapon he needed a wager. でもDelayが溜まると武器を着脱してもすぐ振れる状態になるバグが存在した。 Delay any swing state that there is a bug that even if it is detachable and weapons buildup. HALを装備し数秒間立ち止まってDelay溜めるよりWrestling（素手）でDelayを溜めてからHAL装備して武器を振った方が圧倒的に早い。 HAL Delay features a few seconds and stopped from the wager Wrestling (unarmed) to Accumulate from HAL Delay quickly waved the weapon by far better equipped. これがWrestling-Delayと呼ばれる技術で、このテクニックを極めるとZD-HAL＞Harm＞ZD-HAL＞Harmのような連続攻撃が出来た。 This is called Wrestling-Delay technology, technique and attain the ZD-HAL> Harm> ZD-HAL> Harm made as a series of attacks.

Pre-CastとZDを組み合わせる事によって基本コンボと呼ばれていたのがExp>EB Cast＞ZD＞EB開放コンボ。 ZD Pre-Cast and was called the basic combo by combining things Exp> EB Cast> ZD> EB combo release. ただし、このワンコンボだけではHP100を削る事は出来ない。 However, the only thing HP100 combo This one is not cut. 相手に耐えられてしまうとMana40消費という痛手を負う事になるので、コンボを打ち込むタイミングが重要だった。 And they stand against Mana40 been badly hurt so that consumers can come here, type in the combo timing was important. 他にも色々PvPテクニックと呼ばれる技が開発されたのでご紹介しよう。 Other colors to introduce PvP, so we developed a technique called technique.

This clearly states that when you unequip/detach your weapon the delay shifts to the much quicker delay that allows you to cycle a weapon. Please take special notice that it's still possible to this very day in Ultima Online that you can unequip the weapon shifting your delay to wrestling.

□ Zero-Keep (aka ZK)
Zero-Delayの弱点を補う為に開発された技。 Zero-Delay technique was developed to compensate for weaknesses. Peace/Warモード切り替えを連打する事によりハイライトを消し、相手に隣接されてもこちらから攻撃しない状態を作る。 Peace / War By roll off the highlight mode switch, making the state even if no attack here against the neighbor. この技の利点はDelayが溜まって武器を装備する瞬間、相手に隣接されパンチを出してしまう事を防ぐ。 The advantage of this technique is to equip the weapons Delay accumulated moment, to prevent a possible problem that is adjacent to the opponent out with one punch. しかしAttack Lastボタンを連打されると自動的にハイライトしてしまう為、必ずしもMissパンチを防止出切る訳ではなかった。 Attack Last but because they will automatically highlight the button repeatedly, always in the translation出切Ru Miss did not prevent the punch. しかし相手が追い込まれている状態だとAttack Lastキー連打を忘れてしまう時も多い為、多くのDuelistがこのテクニックを愛用した。 And the state has forced the opponent's Attack Last but for many forget when keys roll, Duelist wore a lot of this technique. 開発者は当時のWakoku最強PvPerとして名高いWu-Tang氏。 Developer at the time PvPer Wakoku renowned Wu-Tang's strongest.

This portion of the techniques clearly states the ability to tab/attack last when avoiding or making someone wrestle.

There is also mention of the double hally exploit that can easily be abused in Razor.

There is no doubt in my mind that these game mechanics are most certainly correct here on UO Second Age. The major problem that conflicts with these game mechanics is the advanced technology that exists in Ultima Online today. Razor allows massive abuse of these mechanics that was not possible during this time frame.

[Watatsumi]

Those don't typically span over a decade in length of time though.

Typically no, but it has happened. But the argument you use not to use peoples memory is faulty. If it is good enough for our justice system with peoples lives in the balance it sure as hell be good enough for a game. Especially since a lot of your so called "proof" is circumstantial and could not be used it court without the very "eye-witness" testimony you choose not to accept. Very funny indeed. Point being you need to use both peoples memory and your circumstantial evidence to develop the closest representation of the T2A era. Using one or the other without using common sense makes for very shitty pvp.

In the world of free servers though when you start following peoples memories you end up with a f'ed up shard thats out of whack and turns into a ghost town in the end.

Please re-read what i posted. I never once said we should make a shard purely based on memory, but said we should use memory and common sense along with the circumstantial evidence to make a more accurate representation of the T2A era. The fact is the pvp now is not how a lot of us that played the era remember it. Sure this shard is doing great right now do to lack of competition. But people will eventually get sick of the horrible 1v1 pvp on this server and move on. No free shard is immune to this.

[Watatsumi]

Faust did you read the first line of that Japanese website you linked to? It's a RECOLLECTION of the guys memory of UO lmfao. And this is what's deciding our current system? A horribly Google translated Japanese article? lol...

direct quote from weblink "Honestly, I vaguely remember quite content these days"

Update on specific topics being discussed in here.

Here is the Japanese Website that describes many of the techniques being discussed here that was written in late 1999.

□ Zero-Delay (abbreviated ZD)
当時は動いているとDelayが溜まらない仕様だった。 Delay was running at the time and the溜Maranai specifications. その為、逃げる相手に武器を当て続けるのは不可能。 For this reason, continue to rely on other weapons is impossible to escape. 武器を振るには立ち止まってDelayを溜める必要があったのだ。 Delay stopped to shake the weapon he needed a wager. でもDelayが溜まると武器を着脱してもすぐ振れる状態になるバグが存在した。 Delay any swing state that there is a bug that even if it is detachable and weapons buildup. HALを装備し数秒間立ち止まってDelay溜めるよりWrestling（素手）でDelayを溜めてからHAL装備して武器を振った方が圧倒的に早い。 HAL Delay features a few seconds and stopped from the wager Wrestling (unarmed) to Accumulate from HAL Delay quickly waved the weapon by far better equipped. これがWrestling-Delayと呼ばれる技術で、このテクニックを極めるとZD-HAL＞Harm＞ZD-HAL＞Harmのような連続攻撃が出来た。 This is called Wrestling-Delay technology, technique and attain the ZD-HAL> Harm> ZD-HAL> Harm made as a series of attacks.

Pre-CastとZDを組み合わせる事によって基本コンボと呼ばれていたのがExp>EB Cast＞ZD＞EB開放コンボ。 ZD Pre-Cast and was called the basic combo by combining things Exp> EB Cast> ZD> EB combo release. ただし、このワンコンボだけではHP100を削る事は出来ない。 However, the only thing HP100 combo This one is not cut. 相手に耐えられてしまうとMana40消費という痛手を負う事になるので、コンボを打ち込むタイミングが重要だった。 And they stand against Mana40 been badly hurt so that consumers can come here, type in the combo timing was important. 他にも色々PvPテクニックと呼ばれる技が開発されたのでご紹介しよう。 Other colors to introduce PvP, so we developed a technique called technique.

This clearly states that when you unequip/detach your weapon the delay shifts to the much quicker delay that allows you to cycle a weapon. Please take special notice that it's still possible to this very day in Ultima Online that you can unequip the weapon shifting your delay to wrestling.

□ Zero-Keep (aka ZK)
Zero-Delayの弱点を補う為に開発された技。 Zero-Delay technique was developed to compensate for weaknesses. Peace/Warモード切り替えを連打する事によりハイライトを消し、相手に隣接されてもこちらから攻撃しない状態を作る。 Peace / War By roll off the highlight mode switch, making the state even if no attack here against the neighbor. この技の利点はDelayが溜まって武器を装備する瞬間、相手に隣接されパンチを出してしまう事を防ぐ。 The advantage of this technique is to equip the weapons Delay accumulated moment, to prevent a possible problem that is adjacent to the opponent out with one punch. しかしAttack Lastボタンを連打されると自動的にハイライトしてしまう為、必ずしもMissパンチを防止出切る訳ではなかった。 Attack Last but because they will automatically highlight the button repeatedly, always in the translation出切Ru Miss did not prevent the punch. しかし相手が追い込まれている状態だとAttack Lastキー連打を忘れてしまう時も多い為、多くのDuelistがこのテクニックを愛用した。 And the state has forced the opponent's Attack Last but for many forget when keys roll, Duelist wore a lot of this technique. 開発者は当時のWakoku最強PvPerとして名高いWu-Tang氏。 Developer at the time PvPer Wakoku renowned Wu-Tang's strongest.

This portion of the techniques clearly states the ability to tab/attack last when avoiding or making someone wrestle.

There is also mention of the double hally exploit that can easily be abused in Razor.

There is no doubt in my mind that these game mechanics are most certainly correct here on UO Second Age. The major problem that conflicts with these game mechanics is the advanced technology that exists in Ultima Online today. Razor allows massive abuse of these mechanics that was not possible during this time frame.

This does not surprise me at all actually Faust is the epitome of hypocrisy.

[Faust]

That article was written in October '99 and wasn't written "based" on memory years later.

Also, this article isn't what these mechanics are based on either. Equipping or unequipping a weapon resets your weapon delay. This exists in and after the demo that actually still exists in the demo today. The patch note for the movement restriction is around the UOR publish that states the swing timer doesn't elapse and simply pauses when you move. The process is very simple when you take a look at these game mechanics. You simply unequip your weapon restarting your delay, your delay is now based on wrestling which is much shorter, the wrestling delay elapses making you ready for a swing, and you simply equip a hally since your swing is ready. It's a pretty simple process to understand.

[Biohazard]

Please re-read what i posted. I never once said we should make a shard purely based on memory...

I never said you did.

[Mordalf]

How about we get this board back on topic and stop debating the validity of eye witness reports, and the American Justice System? Intelligent debate does not include personal slander and/or name calling. All this behavior does is draw the board off topic, and prove you are unable to provide solid and logical evidence and arguments to prove your case. If you have a problem with someones opinion or have reason to believe that what they are stating is wrong or false then say so, present your case, and leave it at that. We are not a group of five year old's winning debates by popularity and slander. We are trying to come up with accurate accounts and reliable evidence of historic events.

So please lets conduct this talk in a civil adult manner. If we cannot do so without mud slinging then please take your comments to another forum. Also if you are not a Lawyer, Judge, or Psychologist please refrain from debating on topics that take a carrier or degree in those types of fields to be an expert, if you are educated in these fields then please feel free to speak on this subject, but please remove the chatter to a proper forum. (Last I checked this forum was called "PVP Inaccuracies" not "The accuracy of eye witness accounts and their place in the modern American Justice System").

Now with that said, perhaps we can get this board back on topic. Hopefully in doing so we can work together and come up with some reliable information that can be implemented to improve game play.

[esteban]

http://www.reddeer.bz/oz_uohistry.htm

Sorry for resurrecting an old post.
I wanted to understand current mechanics better.

Interesting article....
(I read the original because Japanese is my second native tongue)

A few things that interested me from the website were:

□ Pre-Cast
魔法Cast中に武器を持ってもCastが潰れない。これは現パッチでは仕様となっているが当時は一応バグだった。後に武器装備でCastしている魔法が潰れるように修正される事になる。このバグのおかげで、Exp Cast＞武器装備＞武器Hit＞Exp開放という一連のコンボが可能となった。

This translates to:
Equipping a weapon during a spell-cast does not interrupt the spell. This behavior is the intended result of the current patch, but was a bug. This bug was later changed to interrupt the spell if a weapon is armed during a spell-cast. Thanks to this bug, a combo such as: (translation adding context) Cast Explosion => <context added>Immediately, during the cast,</context added> Arm weapon => Hit with weapon => Target Explosion.

The two things that caught my eyes were:
1. The author implies that the weapon is armed immediately after the Explosion spell starts casting.
Currently, equipping a weapon during a spell-cast interrupts the spell on UOSA. According to this article, the current UOSA behavior seems to contradict the mechanic of the author's timeframe (during Fall 1999 - Jan 2001).

2. The author does not mention disarming the weapon before targeting the Explosion spell in the combo.
Currently, targeting a spell, while the character is armed, results in "You hands must be free to cast spells or meditate" and wastes the spell. Based on the fact that the author specifically mentions about arming a weapon in his combo, I would expect a "disarm weapon" would be included in the combo before targeting the spell if disarming was indeed necessary.

□ Zero-Delay（略称ZD）
当時は動いているとDelayが溜まらない仕様だった。その為、逃げる相手に武器を当て続けるのは不可能。武器を振るには立ち止まってDelayを溜める必要があったのだ。でもDelayが溜まると武器を着脱してもすぐ振れる状態になるバグが存在した。HALを装備し数秒間立ち止まってDelay溜めるよりWrestling（素手）でDelayを溜めてからHAL装備して武器を振った方が圧倒的に早い。これがWrestling-Delayと呼ばれる技術で、このテクニックを極めるとZD-HAL＞Harm＞ZD-HAL＞Harmのような連続攻撃が出来た。

The majority of Japanese UO players referred the "Insta-hit" bug as "Zero-Delay" bug.
The paragraph concisely explains the weapon->wrestling timer hand-off technique as follows:
(I'm sure most of you know this mechanic, but I'll translate it for those that may not know)

Back in these days, the swing delay timer did not elapse while the character was moving. Therefore, it was impossible to hit a player on the run. The weapon delay timer had to be completed by standing still. However, a bug where a weapon swing was possible if the delay timer was ready, existed. Rather than standing still with a Halberd equipped to complete the swing delay timer, it was overwhelmingly faster to complete the delay by use of the wrestling skill (bare hands). This technique is known as the wrestling-delay, and those who have mastered this technique was able to produce combos such as Zero-Delay Halberd => Harm => Zero-Delay Halberd => Harm.

1. He says "back in these days" to reflect on the Fall 1999 - Jan 2000 timeframe, but I believe pre-T2A allowed the swing delay to elapse on-the-move (which is why GM Fletchers made a lot of gold with GM Heavy X-bows).

2. I assume that the large majority of people cast a 6th circle spell to estimate the wrestling timer. I'm of the opinion that this combo was shown to illustrate the fact that the wrestling timer is slightly faster than the time to cast a 6th circle spell.

□ Zero-Keep(通称ZK)
Zero-Delayの弱点を補う為に開発された技。Peace/Warモード切り替えを連打する事によりハイライトを消し、相手に隣接されてもこちらから攻撃しない状態を作る。この技の利点はDelayが溜まって武器を装備する瞬間、相手に隣接されパンチを出してしまう事を防ぐ。しかしAttack Lastボタンを連打されると自動的にハイライトしてしまう為、必ずしもMissパンチを防止出切る訳ではなかった。しかし相手が追い込まれている状態だとAttack Lastキー連打を忘れてしまう時も多い為、多くのDuelistがこのテクニックを愛用した。開発者は当時のWakoku最強PvPerとして名高いWu-Tang氏。

A technique invented to keep the Zero-Delay hit. By repeatedly tabbing between Peace/War mode, this technique prevents wasting the swing when the opponent comes close. The technique was used to avoid punching when the opponent came into proximity, while trying to arm the weapon. However, if the opponent was repeatedly hitting their Attack Last button (macro), avoiding punching (wasting the swing) was not guaranteed. When the opponent was in a worse situation during the fight, they tended to forget repeatedly hitting their Attack Last key, so many duelist used this technique. (according to the author) Wu-tang, considered to be the best PvPer on the Wakoku shard, invented this technique.

This seem to illustrate that the Attack Last spam and tabbing out was known in the target timeframe.

There is also mention of the double hally exploit that can easily be abused in Razor.

For those not familiar with this (myself included), here is the excerpt from the website's author

□ 2Hit-Attack
Delayが溜まった状態で武器を装備すると、その装備した武器のDelayが溜まり始める。そのDelayが溜まってしまうと始めに溜めた分が失われるのだが溜まる前に相手と隣接すれば始めに溜めた分のDelayが消化され、武器装備してから溜めたDelayが残る状態となる。残りのDelayを溜めれば2回連続で攻撃できるのだ。(Delayを溜めてからHAL装備＞1回脱着を行う＞HALのDelayを4.0とすると3.8ぐらいまで溜める＞相手と隣接しHALを振る＞0.2秒立ち止まりDelay溜める＞再度HALを振る）という流れ。ただ、HALみたいに遅い武器だと実戦向けではない。(使用したのは開幕の時ぐらい）Delay2.0～2.5ぐらいの武器で効果を発揮する上級テクニック。

When a weapon is armed after the wrestling timer is completed, the swing timer for the armed weapon starts to elapse. If the weapon timer is completed while the wrestling timer has not been used, the wrestling timer is discarded, but if the wrestling timer swing is used prior to the completion of the weapon swing timer, the elapsing weapon swing timer determines the next swing. If used right, you can swing twice consecutively. (Arm Halberd after wrestling timer is completed => disarm halberd => arm halberd in 3.8 seconds if the halberd timer resets in 4 seconds => swing halberd => wait the remaining 0.2 seconds on the weapon timer => swing halberd again). However, a slow weapon such as the halberd is not suitable for real combat. (Using the halberd in this manner is probably effective only at the beginning of the fight). This is an expert technique which can be used very effectively with a weapon with a delay of 2.0~2.5 seconds.

According to the author, the wrestling swing timer and the weapon timer are two separate timers. The "double hally exploit that can easily be abused in Razor," if the mechanic described by the author of the website is accurate, I guess the "era-accurate weapon cycling" the leet pvpers use is as follows:

A = wrestling swing timer
B = halberd swing timer

Assume DEX = Stamina = 25
Wrestling Speed = 50
Halberd Speed = 25 (from http://web.archive.org/web/199905022020 ... m/arms.htm)
A = 15000 / ((25 + 100) * 50) = 2 seconds
B = 15000 / ((25 + 100) * 25) = 4 seconds

1. Wait 2 seconds with no weapon (A: ready to swing)
2. Arm Halberd
3. Disarm Halberd (does the B timer start at step 2 or 3?)
4. Arm Halberd before B timer is ready
5. Swing Halberd (uses the A timer)
6. Wait remaining time on the B timer
7. Swing Halberd (uses the B timer)

Am I correct on the above?

Is this how some people, in scheduled 1v1 tournaments, throw a hally swing immediately after throwing a punch (and wasting the opponent's swing)?

Or is this one of those "test/find out yourself" thing that experienced pvpers do not want to share?


Sincerely,

Esteban *nub*