Ghosting. Multiple accounts. Crutch for bad pks?

[Wise]

razor macro:


Move west
move east
wait 100000

[Bleeble Dorf]

I think that the main points of the argument have been hashed out.

For the last few weeks the experience of dungeon crawling has been severely hampered, especially this last weekend.

I would like to emphasize the following statements:

ghosting was really not era accurate. Many people didn't have 2 accs back in t2a days --- I think it's a retarded tactic that does not add to the feel of t2a and does not help keep a level playing field.

the system and mechanics did allow for it.

The thing is, it wasn't really common to have six or seven ghosts spread out in a dungeon. Most people didn't have multiple accounts until back then, and I've honestly run into ghosts in just about every dungeon since I've been here.

Does it feel like t2a when 6 of 8 pvm hot spots are ghosted by a guild of tamers lying in wait to jump you at the most inopportune time? I'm sure it doesn't for most of us.

i do agree that others use their 'extra' accounts in malicious ways and somewhat 'cheat the system' --- people using their accounts in such a fashion (i.e. ghosting to essentially afk patrol a dungeon) is not good for growth on the server.

Ghost camping provides risk free recon and is basically an exploit of game mechanics.

Ghosting is lame IMO.

Another point I would like to make: This server does not allow AFK macroing for resource gain. Granted, PKing is a different animal than mining ingots, but this exploit turns PKing into a form of AFK resource gain. The only difference here is that instead of hopping on to give your miner some shovels, you hop on to jump in and out of a dungeon real quick.

The folks who are exploiting this mechanic are essentially sidestepping actually doing the work of PKing, namely, patrolling the dungeons and actually finding their prey.

My suggested solution is to treat this the same way you would treat someone who was AFK macroing resources.

[Derrick]

Just as a point of discussion, does ghost camping differ substantially from naked stealther camping?

[Hemperor]

Just as a point of discussion, does ghost camping differ substantially from naked stealther camping?

Multi clienting would be more legit, although both are the products of multi clienting.

[Bleeble Dorf]

If the naked stealther is used for the same purpose? Specifically: leaving recon AFK avatars to check periodically for players in a dungeon?

I would say that it is essentially the same exploit, the only difference being that you can detect the stealther without having to log your own ghost into the dungeon.



I think the best solution to ghost camping is administrative in nature: Treat them like AFK resource gatherers - see if they are in fact AFK, check back in 5 or 10 minutes, if it's still going on, take action. Eventually repeat offenders would be singled out, and the problem would dissolve.

[Senses]

Naked stealther is kind of different in my book. I mean at least with a naked stealther the person camping has a chance to a) see the person without needing his own ghost, assuming he can walk through him or detect him, and b) kill the naked stealther. Maybe just seeing the stealther is enough to give the guy a chance to port out if thats what he wants to do.

Look, we have gone over and over and over this issue, with both sides entering in on the debate. In the original game, whether or not people had multiple accounts, the *spirit* of the game, the *original intent* of the designers, was always to make PK'ing people a risky yet exciting way to play the game. We know this is true by just looking at all the patches that came before, during, and after this era to constantly adjust the rate and ease at which red persons were able to hamper the game play of more passive playstyles.

No matter what you think on the issue, noone can come here and say that the difficulty of being red or pking others is not substantially easier on this server because of Multiple accounts, and the conditions that exist because of multiple accounts. The *spirit* of the age is lost even if the *rule* of the law is captured.

[EVeee]

Just as a point of discussion, does ghost camping differ substantially from naked stealther camping?

It absolutely does not, with the exception that you can track/detect/reveal the stealther, kill him (which being naked he wouldn't mind), and make him a ghost, still serving the same purpose he did in life.

The fact is though, looking at some of these arguments (i.e a ghost being AFK resource), I think some people don't much care what's truly right or wrong, just that they get it their way in the end.

[Bleeble Dorf]

I think you're being shortsighted in saying that people are just trying to get things "their way".

There is obviously a majority concern here about how ghost campers affect the server in a negative way.

My thought of treating AFK ghost campers as AFK resource gatherers was simply a possible solution to an obvious problem.

[EVeee]

I don't see the problem. One, they're using what is available "legally". Two, as I stated before, it can be countered in several different ways. That you or anyone else choose not to use those methods speaks badly, IMO. Instead, post here and get it changed so you don't have to be bothered to recon the area or go in more prepared. On other servers, I see the flip side a lot - "It's too easy for people to recall when I'm trying to pk them, it should be changed." My answer would be the same - boo freaking hoo - get better at what you do/change your tactics. Three, whoever is camping spots as ghosts (and I've only seen a few myself) is holding up two of their accounts - the one standing there as a ghost and the other one that has to be ready to recall in and attack. That means something. They aren't doing many other things that they could be doing with their accounts and thereby limiting themselves. It sucks that they want to commit all their focus and 2/3 of their accounts on making sure that you won't have a good time killing blood elementals, yes, but some people get their kicks that way - and that's never going to change.

[d'Troyes]

Three, whoever is camping spots as ghosts (and I've only seen a few myself) is holding up two of their accounts - the one standing there as a ghost and the other one that has to be ready to recall in and attack. That means something. They aren't doing many other things that they could be doing with their accounts and thereby limiting themselves. It sucks that they want to commit all their focus and 2/3 of their accounts on making sure that you won't have a good time killing blood elementals, yes, but some people get their kicks that way - and that's never going to change.

Dude, you just reiterated one of the complaints I made myself. I don't want to be FORCED into "holding up two of my accounts" just to combat the PK's.

All of you've done is go in circles, repeating what has already been mentioned, providing solutions that have already been mentioned and pointing out that which is the problem with this tactic. It's just a fight of who can multi-client the best. It is just a crutch for BAD PK's!

It has a negative impact on the server whether you like it or not and whether you believe it's era accurate or not. Like I mentioned earlier; it is era accurate in theory, but not in reality. I was there 10 years ago with 2 clients, 2 computers and this wasn't an issue at all. I was one out of thousands with that luxury and now EVERYONE has that luxury.

Whether or not this is changed, I still intend to roll like I did 10 years ago and anti-PK. I'll bait these pusses into their own little game and crush them just the same.

[Derrick]

This mornings patch to the ability for a ghost to view status may effect this problem somewhat.

[Kryptonical]

I dont see why moving a ghost that has been semi idle for a certain period of time is such a big deal, seems like the only people who actually have a problem with it are the ppl who use these incredibly lame tactics. I'd say if your going to camp a dungeon, then camp it with your pk...

Why not put the delay on the transporting of the ghost to 30 secs after your body decays? at that point you have already lost all your stuff. I can see nothing that would be so important that you would want to go somewhere get rezzed then travel back to that spot you died if you didnt have your stuff anyways, or you could just wait for some one to come rez you but if your stuff was gone anyways then whats the point?

I say 30 secs after your body decays you get transported out of the dungeon...who knows maybe this is actually a good thing...

for the pvm'ers out there if you die and cant get your stuff back getting transported to outside the dungeon usually means there are going to be wandering healers around, thus getting rezzed and back on your feet quicker...PLUS I'm not sure about everybody but I know I've done it so I'm sure some one else has, I die in a dungeon by whatever means...I'm deep in the dungeon, currently nobody can come rez me at that spot...by the time I run around trying to find a wandering healer (outside of the dungeon) or another player, by the time I get rezzed its already too late to get my stuff back and I'm too lazy to do all that running so I cut my loses and refer to my handy dandy 2 a day option I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...Help...I'm Stuck...

Having this feature of transporting ghosts could probably reduce ppls use of that tactic as well...not sure how much if any gm time the i'm stuck option takes but less ppl would probably use it.

my two cents

[MatronDeWinter]

I saw remove the im stuck option all together, it's not era-accurate.

[Tronica]

I saw remove the im stuck option all together, it's not era-accurate.

the stuck option is convenient. and saves you from sometimes wasting time doing something that is not fun, or productive, and does not make me want to play the game.

its not a "trammy" option in my opinion. it just makes sense. nobody wants to spend time running from bfe if they die or some shit. thats not fun, and we already have enough shit we have to do in this game that is "not fun" just so we can get to the real fun stuff. the stuck option isn't really being abused is it?
it's giving us all a little of our lifes back.

just thought id put my piece up if this idea is getting considered.

also, i think the change might be ok, but i think the best option was said by someone else. and that was just policing the afk ghosts in the same way that afk recource gathering is policed.

this changes little as far as game functions, but would still help solve the problem.

but props to derrick for this solution even if he changes it later. its refreshing to see the staff "try" new fixes on the words of its players.

[MatronDeWinter]

I saw remove the im stuck option all together, it's not era-accurate.

the stuck option is convenient. and saves you from sometimes wasting time doing something that is not fun, or productive, and does not make me want to play the game.

its not a "trammy" option in my opinion. it just makes sense. nobody wants to spend time running from bfe if they die or some shit. thats not fun, and we already have enough shit we have to do in this game that is "not fun" just so we can get to the real fun stuff. the stuck option isn't really being abused is it?
it's giving us all a little of our lifes back.

just thought id put my piece up if this idea is getting considered.

also, i think the change might be ok, but i think the best option was said by someone else. and that was just policing the afk ghosts in the same way that afk recource gathering is policed.

this changes little as far as game functions, but would still help solve the problem.

but props to derrick for this solution even if he changes it later. its refreshing to see the staff "try" new fixes on the words of its players.

You shouldnt use the stuck option in place of running from BFE when you die anyway. It's called the "My character is physically stuck.." option. Nobody is ever physically stuck, and on the rare chance they are and for some reason cannot recall or anything, (which is going to be obscenely rare) then this option makes sense, but it is not a wait-2-minute free ride to whatever town you chose. I would say to AT LEAST, have this option transport people to a holding cell for a short amount of time, at least until their body and items decays and then allow them to teleport to where they need to go.